Hello, I'm Frank Thompson. I'm a writer and film historian.
And this is Paul Hutton, I'm a Western historian...
...run the Western History Association as executive director...
...and teach at the University of New Mexico.
And I'm Steve Aron, I'm professor of history at UCLA...
...and I'm executive director...
...of the Institute for the Study of the American West...
...at the Autry National Center.
And we're all here to talk about Lawrence Kasdan's Silverado...
...one of the last of the old-style Westerns...
...and a forerunner of the modern Western of the 21st century.
Though it's interesting...
...because it really is, also, as all Westerns are...
...a movie that is as much about its time...
...as about the time in which it's set.
It's clearly also a 1980s Western.
Oh, very much. And not only that...
...of course, the Western was pretty well dead by this time...
...and Kasdan was making a heroic effort to bring it back.
Well, you know, the thing is, the Western is pronounced dead...
...on various occasions and then makes...
...its sort of temporary, at least, resurrection.
Well, the Eastern intellectual establishment...
...continues to put a stake through its heart...
...and, of course, Dracula still rises from the grave over and over.
The Western will never die.
The interesting thing is, in the '60s and early '70s...
...there were a lot of Westerns...
...that were clearly trying to change the face of the form:
The Wild Bunch, the darker Westerns like Dirty Little Billy and Doc...
...but this is as classic as you could possibly want.
Almost every element of the classic Western is represented...
...at some point in this movie.
It has this modern cast...
...and at the time, of course, they were all, you know, hot young actors...
...but the story itself, and the way that it's told...
...is very much in the classic John Ford mould.
The cast is interesting, of course, because Kasdan...
...really goes against type in his casting of Westerns.
He did the same thing in Wyatt Earp...
...and sometimes I think it works against him...
...because he doesn't use...
...some of those grizzled old character actors that...
You know, a Ben Johnson, a Buck Taylor...
...that make us feel warm and fuzzy when we watch a Western.
That sense of familiarity.
So he was daring in his casting on this.
As soon as we start hearing the opening strains of this theme...
...by Bruce Broughton, you know you're in classic territory.
To me, the gold standard of Western musical scores...
...are Alfred Newman's How the West Was Won...
...Elmer Bernstein's The Magnificent Seven...
...Jerry Fielding's The Wild Bunch.
I think it's a great compliment to say that this score is up there with them...
...and it can really be talked about in the same sense.
This is a terrific, wonderful, rousing score.
Now, I'm surprised you didn't mention the scores to the spaghetti Westerns...
...in that this gives me a chance, both to plug...
At the Autry National Center next summer, we are opening...
...a major exhibition on the films of Sergio Leone...
...both on the Westerns that influenced him, and then, in turn...
...the films that Sergio Leone has... The modern filmmakers...
...who Sergio Leone has influenced, including Scorsese...
...and Quentin Tarantino, most obviously.
But there, I think the scores of those movies are particularly memorable.
In fact, I think people remember the score of the movie...
...more than they actually remember any of those movies...
...other than that Clint Eastwood was a poncho-wearing character in them.
Yeah, certainly I'm remiss in not mentioning...
...Ennio Morricone's score for Once Upon a Time in the West...
...which is one of the great movie scores, Western or not.
That's actually a great score, but I don't care for any of the others...
...and it seemed to me that the Italian Western helped...
...to kill the Western.
So I've always had a little edge about it.
There's the part of it that, sometimes, the reinventions...
...and attempts to reinvent or resurrect, don't necessarily lead...
...in the sort of revival direction.
And I resisted them for the longest time...
...but finally I've come over to the dark side and recognised...
...that Once Upon a Time in the West truly is a great film...
...and not just because Claudia Cardinale is in it so often...
...which is the only reason I watched it before, but...
Yes, and what we're watching now is a fine film...
...but it could use a Claudia Cardinale.
It certainly could. They could've used her in this movie.
Well, or they could've used any fully developed...
...female character in this movie, I think.
Well, I don't know that "character" is necessary...
...but your first two adjectives are correct.
- Any fully developed female. - Yes.
Well, no, I do think that, clearly, the Rosanna Arquette character...
...whose name I don't even remember...
Her name's Hannah.
You know, she's not a particularly strong character...
...throughout the film...
...and a lot of it must've wound up on the cutting-room floor...
...because, clearly, they didn't cast her not to use her more.
By the way, let me put a little plug in for my state of New Mexico here.
We've just gone through the credits...
...and they've been a wonderful travelogue...
...for all the scenic wonders of New Mexico...
...where we have a very active film commission...
...of which I'm associated, and which, of course...
...gives great rebates to filmmakers who wanna film in New Mexico.
And you can see how Kasdan loved... As so many others...
...who've made Westerns in the last 20 years...
...have loved New Mexico.
Well, that's one of the enduringly great things about Westerns...
...is it's so much about landscape and the kind of people...
...who went to find these, and to inhabit these lands...
...and so, really, all you have to do is point the camera...
...at scenery like that and you're okay.
Well, the great thing about New Mexico...
...is, actually, variety within a very tight space.
I just worked on The Missing, I was historical consultant on it...
...and Ron Howard was just captivated...
...by how he could get alpine mountains...
...he could get deserts, he could get barren moonscapes...
...and lush meadows...
...all within 50 miles of really fine restaurants and hotels in Santa Fe.
Now, where is this actually, though?
These sort of... The full desert scene here.
Well, this is further down, down by Las Cruces.
So most of it is, though, northern New Mexico.
Most of them have been set in somewhere north of Santa Fe?
This was all shot right around Santa Fe...
...and they built a whole movie set...
...which we'll talk about later when we get to it.
Which, actually, was only about five miles...
...where I lived in El Dorado, in Santa Fe.
And it's also the movie set that was used on The Missing...
...it was also used for Young Guns II and several other Westerns.
Now, these guys have just, what we call in the movie biz, "met cute."
Is that a movie-biz term?
We don't say that in the history business.
Not if you wanna keep tenure, you don't say that.
And, mostly, the people who meet cute are the hero and the heroine...
...and I think it's really significant that these two guys...
...are really the romantic centre of this movie.
I'm not insinuating. No, I'm not suggesting anything.
I'm simply saying that in lacking a strong female character in this film...
...these two are really the emotional bond of the movie.
Though there was, I think, some idea that Rosanna Arquette...
...would be the third part of this triangle.
I've heard that suggested...
...but it certainly isn't borne out in the film that we see.
À la Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, I suppose.
It's nice to have guys who care about each other in Westerns.
And indeed, you know, McMurtry is currently...
They're filming a new Larry McMurtry story even as we speak...
...and it is allegedly the first great gay Western.
I've always wondered about Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp...
...in all those films.
Well, it's certainly a subject that goes all the way back...
...in all the great Westerns.
I mean, there's rarely...
...a really good heterosexual romance in any of the great classic Westerns.
There are mostly men who bond.
The Wild Bunch is a perfect example.
But here, at least, you have men bonding, caring about one another...
...protecting one another, in a sense, as opposed to the newest Western...
...the David Milch version, Deadwood...
...where everyone is out to do each other in, it seems.
Well, Deadwood is very much more in the tradition...
...of the ones I mentioned earlier, Dirty Little Billy, Doc...
...those dark, sleazy, horrible, underside Westerns.
But I think Deadwood is really a brilliant series.
Deadwood is wonderful. You know, I was actually struck, though...
...that this film, especially in its characterisations...
...had sort of a forerunner of Deadwood.
This is one of the sets that's not far from Santa Fe, by the way.
Which they've really dressed out nicely.
In fact, I just used this set...
...for a History Channel episode of Investigating History I did...
...on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
It's now in complete ruins. It's interesting to see when it was new.
But here, this one set, where we have, actually, adobe-style housing...
...is the one hint in the movie, it seems, that this is a territory...
...that was inhabited by Mexicans.
But most of the movie is...
...with the exception of Danny Glover, all white people.
That there's no sense of the multiethnic population of New Mexico...
...and the New Mexican Territory.
So in that sense, it's a movie that, I think, if it were remade today...
...would be remade with a more multiethnic cast.
And it is interesting that, in fact, Deadwood has that.
You see that the streets are populated with a wide variety of people.
And, of course, in reality...
...the American West, especially the West Coast...
...was the most diverse, multiethnic section of the United States...
...in the time of the Wild West.
There's just no question about it.
And one of the wonders of it...
...would be that you would meet all kinds of different people...
...you would eat all kinds of different foods...
...see all kinds of different clothing.
So it was the exotic...
...and that was one of the appeals of the West.
We can tell that he has a sense of humour about the West here...
...which comes out.
And, again, one more example of fine shooting so that we know that...
And for a gun that won't even hold together long enough to load it.
I do know one, at least one backwoods story that was told...
...this was about Daniel Boone...
...but about various frontier hunters in Kentucky in a much earlier era...
...but, again, where, in a William Tell-like move...
...it was reported that people did something like that...
...where they placed the target between the legs of the person...
...as opposed to atop the head...
...which I guess was evidence of the deepest play.
I believe that's called frontier male bonding.
That's why there were so many altos in the Old West.
Oh, another great character actor being introduced...
...but, again, a very sort of New York actor.
I mean, all of Kasdan's actors are more Eastern in their sensibility.
And this, I think, speaks not only to the lack of those old character actors...
...but also to this question of a lack of ethnicity in the movie.
If you even think about a classic Western like The Searchers...
...for instance, back in the early '50s...
...there's always that sense of the exotic.
On their travels, they meet lots of different kinds of people.
Of course, The Wild Bunch is full of that.
I mean, The Wild Bunch is all the exotic.
Once they leave the town full of Bible-thumpers...
...they are in a new and exotic world of Mexico.
Right, but this, I mean, I think it's, as I say, striking, because here...
And Paul, you mentioned when you were talking about...
...certainly the recent emphasis in Western historical scholarship...
...on the diversity of peoples in the American West...
...and the American West as the great meeting ground...
...of different peoples and cultures...
...far more so than the eastern half of the United States...
...where racial relations were configured along a white/black axis.
What Western history, I think, has taught us in the last 20 years...
...or, at least, what Western historical scholarship has tried to teach us...
...is how much more complicated racial and ethnic relations were in a place...
...peopled by so many different groups, so many different cultures.
What's striking, though, in this movie is how relatively absent that is...
...even though it is set in New Mexico...
...which, while maybe not as ethnically diverse...
...as the Pacific slope, in terms of the lack of Asian-Americans...
...certainly had a significant population of...
...Spanish-speaking people, as well as of American Indians.
And that's absent from this movie...
...other than the architecture in this scene.
Yeah, not only that, of course...
...a lot of Chinese miners, that sort of thing.
I think that's just another indication that this movie...
...is based on other movies, instead of based on Western history.
I mean, this is a classic Western film that takes films as its background.
That was a classic introduction of a Western character...
...where he comes up, looks the guy up and down...
...and spits his tobacco out.
That's a clear sign there's gonna be trouble in the future.
Oh, it's the 5th Cavalry Regiment.
You see, now, there's a little piece of history thrown in.
I'm not sure the 5th was ever in New Mexico...
...but, you know, this really isn't New Mexico.
This is Neverland, where we're set here.
This could be anywhere...
...and that's what's great about the New Mexico landscape.
- It is Western Brigadoon, isn't it? - It is. Very nice, yeah.
But I don't think Westerns are ever supposed to be...
...in a particular place, necessarily.
- They are in a mythic space. - They are.
And it's sort of interesting with Western film...
...and when I teach the Western...
...even when you're dealing with a film like this, which is completely fictional...
I mean, this isn't based on anything that's historical except the place.
But all Westerns reside in that place, and so we have certain expectations...
...about what they're going to be...
...about what kind of action is gonna transpire...
...about the story line.
And this film is perfectly in keeping with that tradition.
It is at once historical and completely fictional.
And the West it represents is indeed this completely mythic West...
...that, at the same time, defines who we are as a people.
Now, would you say that some of the attempts to rework the Western...
...in ways that this one doesn't...
This one, as you pointed out, follows the classic lines...
...in many respects.
...the ways the Westerns that try to alter the framework in some ways...
...play with just that?
Usually, when they alter the framework too much, they have trouble.
They run into trouble.
And the alterations, I think...
...need to be pretty slight for it to survive, but can be, yet, dramatic.
I mean, if you think of a show like Deadwood...
...what they've done, in terms of language and characterisation...
...has been pretty dramatic, in terms of breaking with the past...
...but at the same time, those characters are pretty traditional.
They're just more modern in their language and their sensibilities.
Although people cussed in the Old West.
- They had their own cusses. - They had their own peculiar cusses...
...although they could be very colourful.
Nice sunset. Nice, beautiful New Mexico sunset.
I see those every day.
Well, it seems to me the Western film has its own kind of rules.
Now, look, you get snow. See how perfect New Mexico is? Yes, again.
Well, did they film this in the wintertime?
You don't have to film in the wintertime in New Mexico.
You can go find snow anywhere.
It's height that decides your climate, so if you film in the fall or the spring...
And this is, in fact, the movie ranch they built...
...not far from Santa Fe.
And that looks like real snow. They didn't dress it.
When we shot The Missing, there was no snow...
...and we dressed it for snow.
- You had to bring it in? - Yes.
I, in fact, got horrible bronchitis and was flat on my back for two weeks...
...as a result of all this fake powder that they used for the snow.
But it was worth it, you know, to be in show business.
There was our first look at Rosanna Arquette.
And again...
The hint that there's going to be something more.
Well, the gallows is also a hint that something's coming up.
And again, I would argue that if this Western were being...
If this movie were being remade today, again...
...and attempting to, in some ways, play off of recent scholarship...
...which, of course, movies don't have to do...
...but if it were, again, I think the female role would have been...
...far more prominent and far more fleshed out than it ends up being.
Or indeed there would be no female whatsoever...
...and the role between the two male leads would be...
...much more fleshed out, as you would like.
That would be more in keeping with modern scholarship.
Which is just fine with me.
Don't get me wrong, I think everything's fine.
- You're not Baxter? - My name's Emmett.
Well, see, there's cussing right there. You see, he's cutting edge.
Not quite as evocative as David Milch's dialogue.
You know, I have a rule that I apply, which is called the Fanny Hill rule.
If it appears in John Cleland's 1747 British novel, Fanny Hill...
...then it's fair game.
It was language that was commonly used by people.
And I know of no word... And I'm pretty imaginative.
...I know of no word, no curse word...
...no description of male or female anatomy...
...that does not appear in that 1747 novel, so I think we can.
- Thank you. - Don't you want to count it?
We trust you.
Here, the guys, we know they're bad guys...
...because they don't wanna count the money...
...and we know that that means they're gonna rob them later...
...which they certainly are.
By the way, the Western history aficionados...
...the real people, who really care...
...as opposed to academics like us...
...would just be going nuts over all these hats...
...which are all very modern and very wrong.
Completely wrong for the period.
Much too stylish, much too nice.
The things that period films always are scared...
...to offend the audience with are hats and hair.
They always give people modern hairstyles.
Look at anybody there and they all look like...
I mean, her hair's up, but still, if she went out on the street...
...between shots, nobody would stare at her.
I would say hats, hair and teeth.
The quality of dentistry was probably...
I don't think the white teeth were quite as gleaming...
...as Hollywood actors have.
This is, of course, the one scene where, I think, racial issues...
...are brought forward in the most obvious way.
And glancingly.
Well, I mean, for the most part, this is it. It's here.
We have some idea African-Americans were not seen as equals...
...or that there were some segregation and discrimination...
...in place in the West...
...and then that theme also falls away.
And, frankly, in a place like territorial New Mexico or Arizona...
...during this period, this scene could go either way.
I mean, he could've been served because, "Who cares"...
...or maybe he wouldn't have been served.
It would be absolutely dependent upon the background...
...of the bartender, of the proprietor.
There would've been no laws, you know, no segregation laws.
But in a town that is otherwise this white...
...it might have been problematic.
Well, he would stand out.
And the fact that he's now kicking their butt all over...
...it probably wouldn't help him with the local constable either.
He would probably have some explaining to do.
Now, you mentioned before that the hats and hair...
- And here's the law. Look at that. - With a great opening line.
What's all this then?
This nigger's breaking up my place, Sheriff Langston.
No, because it's the 1980s. "I don't like that word very much."
Well, he's British, so he has sensibilities.
And this is before A Fish Called Wanda, isn't it?
Yes, it really is.
- But it's after Monty Python. - Yeah.
And this, again, I think, goes to the heart...
...of Lawrence Kasdan's unique sense of casting in a Western film.
Not that there couldn't have been a British sheriff. There could've been.
But it would be highly unlikely.
But I think he's terrific in the role.
You never buy him as an actual person.
But as a movie character, he's wonderful.
And let me point out that his hat is authentic and correct.
And one of the few really authentic hats we've got in this.
And that's defined because...?
It's a sort of bowler from the late 19th century...
...a perfect sort of Eastern hat.
And very nice.
But even though he's British...
...he's the law, and he makes up the law as he goes along...
...and that's a nice Western trait.
What about the costuming, in the sense that...
...you'd talked about the problems that you had...
...or the way people, with The Alamo, quibbled with various details.
Oh, let's not get Frank on The Alamo and his Dickens costuming...
...in that awful movie that he was an integral part of...
...and should take all responsibility for.
- It's a great movie. - Yes.
And the costuming is terrific.
- The Alamo, that is. - Yeah.
This is, you know...
There are probably elements within these costumes that are correct...
...and I think it's very haphazard.
I think they dressed the people to look good first...
...and then to be correct second.
- Which is what they should do. - Sure, absolutely.
Absolutely. And sometimes, in fact, if you think of a film like Tombstone...
...which was very popular and very successful...
...and is especially popular among the Wild West aficionado class...
...that film has sort of defined costuming now...
...as it appears in Westerns.
And there was a level of authenticity to the costumes in Tombstone...
...but yet they were still very dramatic and very colourful.
And, in fact, I think it's one of the things...
...that set that film apart from Kasdan's Wyatt Earp.
His costumes were darker, drearier. He used a lot of blacks, browns.
I mean, he didn't, his costume designer did...
...but he signed off on it.
And thus it lost the colour that was integral to the West.
But that actually raises the biggest question of all...
...that all filmmakers of Westerns have to confront...
...how much accuracy matters.
That is to say, it could be more accurate...
...but does it make it a better movie in any sense, and...?
No, in the final analysis, I don't think it matters a bit.
Especially the Western, which is the most malleable of film genres.
I mean, you look at, say, My Pal Trigger with Roy Rogers...
...or The Great Train Robbery from 1903...
...or Once Upon a Time in the West...
...you wouldn't even put those things in the same style in most ways...
...and yet they're all Westerns.
And you look at the Gene Autry things, with his rhinestone cowboy outfits...
...and there's always this incredible range of expression...
...and costume and the way people re-create this period.
Range of expression and costume...
But here, not to get myself in trouble with one of my employers...
...but the beauty about a Gene Autry movie...
...is if you've seen one, you have seen them all.
True enough, and that's probably why people loved him so much.
Now, you know, when I first saw this in original release...
...this is the first time I'd ever seen Kevin Costner in anything...
...and so I was very surprised at the way his career went after this...
...because he's got this loosey-goosey attitude in this film...
...and he's just so much fun and just so lively...
...and he becomes much more of a Gary Cooper type after this.
I mean, much more succinct and...
Sour and stiff is what some people have said...
...but I think Gary Cooper-like is a better...
See, I'm the more politic of the two of us, Paul.
No, no, I think he is more dour, though...
...and such a serious character.
And especially if you watch a film like Wyatt Earp...
...it's hard to believe it's the same actor.
And this film actually proves he can act.
I mean, that's what they always said, John Wayne just played himself.
No, for heaven's sake, he was a very fine actor.
And Costner is too.
And he's playing a completely different role here...
...than we see in his later films.
Of course, later he becomes such a big star.
Maybe he wasn't willing to deviate from that persona...
...that was working so well for him.
Well, Kevin has agreed to become our membership spokesperson...
...for the Autry National Center, so we are in his debt.
So no more "dour and stiff" comments. I see. I'm sorry, gentlemen.
What I will say, he was actually our honouree last year...
...as our Western Heritage Award winner...
...and one of the things he said in this speech he gave...
I mean, he really has remained...
He is first and foremost a fan of the Western...
...and has dedicated himself to it...
...in ways that many of the people who have backed him...
...or have sort of "agented" him and the like...
...have not always suggested that it was in his career interest...
...to do the films that he has done.
Starting with Dances With Wolves, but even with Open Range...
...I think that was not the movie that I think many of his backers...
...would've liked him to be making.
That's a wonderful film too, by the way...
...and one that really plays very strongly, like this film...
...off the conventions of the Western.
Populated with more traditional characters, I think, than this film is.
I'm talking about Open Range.
But very, very well done...
...and with one of the great gunfights ever filmed.
Yeah, it speaks very well of Costner, that he's, along with Eastwood...
...really struggled, and Tom Selleck, as well...
...to keep the Western alive.
And if you didn't have these strong actors with a powerful following...
...who cared about the Western, it really would be gone.
- I can't show up without him. - Then this is where we part ways.
You hate to see guys having to part ways this early in their...
As close to each other as these fellas.
Luckily, they're not gonna part ways for very long.
They're not quite as laconic as some Western heroes, though.
They actually manage to say something in their parting here...
...as opposed to simply the...
Well, these are 1980s guys, so they're in touch with their feelings.
Much more so than, say, Pike Bishop...
They parted, now they're going to the bar...
...so so much for that whole conversation.
Isn't it interesting, you go in any Western town...
...there's no one on the streets...
...you go in the bar, and it's absolutely packed.
Everybody's in there, everybody's ready for action.
I always love that they have these tiny little towns...
...with these gargantuan saloons that are as big as a shopping mall.
And, you know, they actually did.
I mean, the West, you go, you look at these little towns...
...especially the mining towns, and there'll be one general store...
...there'll be one bank, and there'll be 16 saloons.
But keep in mind, no television, no movies...
...you only had cards and liquor to keep you going.
You're wearing my hat.
What else have you got that's mine?
I wouldn't argue for that hat back, frankly, myself, but...
But, you know, this sort of...
This hat business is famous in Westerns...
...and there's a long tradition...
Truly, there's a long tradition of people messing with other people's hats...
...and that leads to dead men in the streets pretty regularly.
And, of course, though, this is one of the points...
...that Western historians have tried to work over.
Where violence really took place in the West...
...how common these kind of saloon-fight gunfights were...
...as opposed to brawls.
I think people agree that there was lots of brawling...
...but how many people got blown away was much less common.
Well, Paul can speak to this better than I can, of course...
...but the famous O.K. Corral fight...
What, a couple of guys dead, a couple of guys wounded...
...and yet it's lived throughout history...
...as one of the great gun battles.
That's gotta tell you what the body count...
Like, in the end of this movie, not to give anything away...
...to those listening to us instead of actually watching the movie...
...but there's gotta be 50 guys dead in the last gun battle.
If they're listening to us and they haven't watched this movie already...
...I think we need to get them to a psychiatrist right away, but...
But, see, that would be a bloodbath that would live forever.
Having done a television documentary for Investigating History...
...on the gunfight at the O.K. Corral...
Of course, it's such a classic moment of American law enforcement.
That's why it has remained so famous.
But I differ with a lot of my academic colleagues.
In fact, I was interviewing Stewart Udall for one of these documentaries...
...and he and I have disagreed for years...
...over the level of violence in the West.
And I have many friends who spend their whole careers trying to prove...
...that the West wasn't violent.
Of course, the kind of Western history I do...
...is a much more romantic kind of Western history...
...and much more traditional than a lot of the new Western history.
But to me, the West is just one great, sweltering pit of violence.
And it's just violence built on violence.
This may be because I've just yesterday finished a script...
...on the Mountain Meadows Massacre of 1857...
...and I'm pretty convinced that the West is a horribly violent place.
I don't think that's the issue. I don't think you're in disagreement.
I think the historians, and most prominently...
...let's say Richard Maxwell Brown...
...I don't think they disagree that the West...
...was an exceptionally violent place.
I think they would argue that the violence was not of the kind...
...that Western movies mythologize...
...that it was less a case of individual gunfighter violence...
...on the streets of a dusty Western town...
...or the final scene in this movie, as I recall...
...as it was, you know, patterns of collective violence:
Ethnic groups, labour violence...
...social violence of one kind or another...
...wars against Indians, discriminations and riots...
...or violence against Chinese.
That kind of violence was certainly pervasive.
The gunfighter duels that are the staple of Western movies...
...were less common than... And that's part of the reason...
But then, I guess, the question becomes...
...not how common or less common they were...
...but why people are so fascinated by the O.K. Corral...
...if it was a relatively minor incident.
Or if it was more significant...
...in what ways was it significant of the larger patterns?
And there, the argument has always been...
...or at least some historians have argued...
...that what happened at the O.K. Corral was emblematic...
...of larger post-Civil War conflicts...
...of what Richard Maxwell Brown calls Civil War of Incorporation.
We actually just... Here's a plug.
We did a programme at the Autry last June...
...with Richard Maxwell Brown, David Milch from Deadwood...
...Chuck Michel...
...the chief attorney for the National Rifle Association in California...
...and Mike Barnes, who's the head of the Brady Campaign...
...for the control of handguns...
...and we asked them to talk about how violence in the historical West...
...and the myths of violence in the historical West...
...have informed and misinformed, have shaped and misshaped...
...contemporary understandings and debates...
...about gun control in the United States.
This is why there will never be gun control in the United States...
...because of the way Costner's twirling those pistols.
It's just, these movies absolutely glorify guns and violence, of course...
...and how any young person could go and see a movie like this...
...and then not kind of swagger out onto the street...
...and think, "Wow, that is so cool," you know, I mean, that's...
Now, I'm not blaming Westerns for the level of violence in America.
But that is a common... Actually, that is a...
You know, that is one line that's always trotted out, that Westerns...
That we had a particularly violent Western past...
...and that is responsible for the violence today.
We did have a very violent Western past...
...and we had a very violent past period...
...and that is why we're still a violent people today...
...and it's been interesting to me...
In fact, Steve, with the whole debate over Western violence...
I mean, it's part of an effort, I think...
...to pretend that violence never occurred...
...because maybe somehow that'll stop the violence that we live with today.
And while that, it seems to me, is laudable in its sentiment...
...it is incorrect in its confrontation with reality.
It seems to me that if we understood better...
...just why human beings are the way they are...
...and then why we glorify violence like we're doing right here...
...it would help us today.
I think we live in a far more violent time today...
...than the time of the Wild West.
In fact, I've always appreciated the Western, in fact...
...and the violence in Westerns because it seemed, to me...
...it was in that Neverland place that was kind of safe.
And cop shows and CSI shows...
...and what we see every day on our television news today...
...is unfortunately very, very real.
We can only hope that the bad guys today...
...are as bad of shots as these guys are in the movies.
Who take complete aim at our protagonist...
...and still manage to miss them every single time.
This scene is out of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.
And I don't say that pejoratively. I mean, that's nice.
I mean, he's really using his material.
Now they're out of the snow, they've ridden out of the snow...
...and now we're down in the desert...
...because New Mexico provides every possible...
Are you on the payroll of the New Mexico Chamber of Commerce?
I am working with the New Mexico Film Commission, yes, indeed.
And proud of it.
Our governor, Bill Richardson, who is on television even more than I am...
...believes very strongly in bringing filmmaking to New Mexico.
You're out-plugging me.
Your shameless plugs for New Mexico...
...are outdoing mine for the Autry National Center.
I'm trying to do the best I can.
We gotta get these in quick...
...before Frank starts going on about his 16 books that are out.
Look at that. That's a great shot, actually, see.
The DVD of that June programme that I talked about...
...with Milch, Richard Maxwell Brown...
...Warren Olney moderated...
...and Mike Barnes and Chuck Michel, is available...
...and to Autry National Center members, so become a member.
Very nice, that's very nice. You had a lot of big names there.
You never invite me to the Autry office.
Paul, we would real... We would be honoured by your presence.
Ever been invited to the Autry, Frank?
I've never been invited pretty much anywhere.
I see. And there's a reason for that.
I actually did a huge exhibit on General Custer at the Autry...
- Exactly, Paul. - ...a few years ago.
We are honoured when Paul...
I love the Autry, I love everything about it.
And it is indeed one of the great institutions.
The Autry, the Buffalo Bill National Cowboy Hall.
All are just wonderful representations of the West.
- Good shooting right there. - He lost his great hat.
Yeah, the only authentic prop in the movie.
This is, by the way, exactly the same place, I think...
...where they shot the big climax in Wyatt Earp...
...where Wyatt Earp, Kevin Costner, kills the Curly Bill Brocius character...
...at the end of that film.
And where is this set? How close to Santa Fe?
Oh, not far at all. It's Tent Rocks. It's not very far at all.
Although now they've gone to a different area...
...where they're shooting this little scene.
It's the magic of movies. You move around.
We were talking about the problems of authenticity...
...on this series I'm doing, Investigating History.
We're doing documentaries...
...and obviously we're really rigid in trying to be historically accurate...
...but, of course, it's very difficult, and just time and money makes it...
- Great shot there, by the way. - Yeah, the four horsemen there.
Yeah, that's pretty fabulous.
Bad hat, though, but otherwise wonderful.
But anyway, you know, you always have to make compromises...
...it's just impossible...
What I love about a scene like this...
...is just how much it luxuriates in the Western.
- He's just... - He's just... He's tearing up.
You can just see Kasdan behind the camera, tears in his eyes.
- Or watching dailies, just going nuts. - And who wouldn't?
"I'm so good, I can hardly stand myself."
Well, when I was doing the gunfight at the O.K. Corral setups...
...for our Investigating History show...
We shot it in Old Tucson...
...right where Burt Lancaster and Kirk Douglas...
...had done Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.
I gotta tell you, I was misty-eyed.
I just thought this was so incredibly cool.
There's a great reveal for Silverado.
There it is, yeah. Although that's not really at all where the real town is.
The wagon train. See, movie's got everything.
It's got the town, it's got the wagon train.
But no women, no Mexicans, no Indians.
Picky, picky, picky. See, that's the...
This is the Old Western history. Suddenly it came to me.
Steve and I, of course, engage in this great academic debate...
...that academics spend all their time doing over...
...the new Western history and the Old Western history...
...and what the West means to America...
This film, I think, is absolutely the Old Western history...
- ...but with a little touch of the new. - Made new.
- The Old Western history made new... - Yeah.
...as opposed to the new Western history set old.
Set old, right. Which is what Deadwood is.
- Absolutely. - Deadwood is indeed.
Look, now he's got a different...
He's going for that ethnic costume, though. Look at that.
Scared children.
This means the guys are gonna have to do something.
It's not quite as bold, by this time, to have a black hero in a film...
...as it would've been even 15 years before this...
...but it's sort of interesting how mainstream he is, as one of them.
Of course, this film really hearkens back to The Magnificent Seven.
I think that...
...it's clear in this scene.
Except you can tell how much times have changed...
...because in 1960, they'll kill off most of the seven...
...but by this time, they won't kill off the protagonist.
It's... We've grown into a happy-ending, sort of movie-watching public.
- Well, either that or... - It was already happening here.
Since Kasdan wrote Return of the Jedi and Empire Strikes Back...
...if I'm not mistaken, a sequel-ready studio system.
That is to say, they didn't make one, but they left it possible to do one.
In fact, the Costner character...
...is a character that you could just see coming out in a sequel...
...if they had decided to do it.
Oh, the last scene in this movie...
...if it doesn't set up a sequel, then what does it do?
Oh, don't give the last scene away, Frank.
Sorry, folks.
Another, by the way, magnificent New Mexico landscape, which is...
My kids live up in Durango, Colorado...
...and I actually drive right past those cliffs every weekend...
...when I go up to pick them up.
I'll be doing it tomorrow.
And, truly, I think every time I drive up there...
...it's a long drive, but nevertheless I think:
"Wow, look at this landscape. Man."
And I say that to my children, I say:
"Look at this. Aren't you lucky to be living in a place this beautiful?"
And they go, "What?"
It definitely does add something...
...as opposed to shooting the Western in Griffith Park...
...or somewhere in the Santa Clarita Valley...
...up at, well, where Melody Ranch is, up there.
Oh, we're back in the snow. You see that?
Once again, multi-climactic.
I'm not sure that's real snow. That may be dress snow, there.
Let's see if there's breath. Well...
And now they're about to institute a plan...
...that Laurel and Hardy could've come up with...
...and with just about as much plausibility.
Except not quite as funny.
Have you written a book on Laurel and Hardy?
I never have.
I know you've written one on Lincoln, you've done one on the Alamo...
- I've done five on the Alamo, thank you. - Five on the Alamo.
You've kind of milked that one all the way, haven't you, Frank?
- I've still got a few more in me. - Okay.
So don't let me stop now.
Frank did the novelisation for the current Disney film The Alamo...
...in which he used me as one of the characters...
...and I deeply appreciated that.
Never been a character in a novel before.
I get to meet Davy Crockett in the novel.
That was remarkably easy on you too.
Paul is an expert on Davy Crockett, amongst many other subjects.
Thank you, Steve, thank you.
"Shall I kill him?"
That's what I like about bad guys:
They never act on their own initiative.
They're always looking for instructions.
Which is why the hero always lives.
If the bad guy just did what they should do, which is kill him...
There would be no James Bond movies, at least.
I was just about to say, these guys are like a James Bond villain.
- Yeah. - "Well, let's tie him up...
- Yeah. "Let's tie him up here." - ...and then aim a laser beam at him."
- If they'd just shot Scott Glenn... - "Leave the rattlesnake to get him."
- This is a good grizzled character. - Yes, I was just about...
I was about to say that, and so I take back what I said, and he...
And look at his hat, by the way.
- The grizzled characters get good hats. - Yeah.
Now, what had Scott Glenn done before he did this?
Was this a big breakout role for him?
When did The Right Stuff come out?
- Several years earlier than this. - Okay, so he was already established.
He loves Westerns, though.
I just saw him at the Golden Boot, and he was...
Gave a speech and talked about his love of the Western.
In fact, they showed clips from this film at the presentation.
Actually, The Right Stuff might've been around this time.
I think this was all right around this time.
This was a major effort on Kasdan's part to bring the Western back.
I remember, when it came out, how impressed I was he'd do this...
...because he was really riding high.
And I think it's reflective of his power at that time in Hollywood...
...but also reflective of his love of the Western...
...that he sort of, you know, bet the farm on the Western.
Now, we talked before about the accuracy of good guys...
...and the problematic shooting of bad guys...
...but what about, actually, the guns and rifles that they're using?
Had a lot of talk about whether the hats were accurate...
...whether the costumes were accurate, the teeth as white as they appear...
...what about the actual guns that they're using?
Did they put attention to that here?
Well, I think... I mean, these are period weapons.
I can't tell whether that's a Henry or a Winchester. I can't tell.
I think it is a Henry rifle. They do say that.
So...
I think, usually, they pay a lot more attention to guns...
...than they do in this film.
To weapons. It's kind of like weapons...
I mean, he really is creating a fantasy world here.
I don't think he's making any pretence that this is a historical Western...
...although it seems based... You know, based in a historical setting.
Now he's stolen all their horses. That was easy.
- Look, how could he...? - He doesn't shoot, right.
He shot, he just missed. Look, they're tripping over each other.
I see the Laurel and Hardy aspect of this.
- But only bad guys' guns jam. - Right.
And only bad guys run out of bullets.
I mean, you think about it, you've only got six shots.
And, you know, if you fired one of those pistols, let's say, 12 times...
...your chances of having a jam are just astronomical.
Just going up and up. I mean, they're black-powder weapons.
And it's just going to be a real problem.
And the other thing you never see in any Western, for the most part...
...is the smoke that comes from black-powder weapons...
...because if you did, then you wouldn't be able to see the scene.
It's a real problem.
Now, what I like about this guy...
...the fourth member here, who is from the wagon train...
...he's the nameless guy, like in a Star Trek episode.
The second he elects to go along with these three guys, he's dead.
You know he's dead...
...because we don't know what his name is and he's not one of the stars.
And indeed he's got about one minute to live.
You know, it's the role I've always aspired to in Hollywood.
Oh, good shot.
- The first... Look at that. - Yep.
The first shot that actually hit them.
They get him with pistols at that range. Man, you couldn't even...
You could not hit that mountain with a.45 pistol.
But if that guy had aimed at Scott Glenn, he would've missed.
Right. But he got that guy dead in the chest.
Because he was the nameless guy.
You could make that shot with a rifle, not with a pistol.
Nice wagon-train shot, by the way.
You could only get that scenic in New Mexico.
I think some people in other parts of the Front Range are in...
Yeah, and they would be wrong, Steve. They would be wrong.
Not to introduce a technical note into this thing...
...but I really wish this movie had been shot in Panavision.
It was shot in Super Techniscope, which is like Super 35...
...which is a kind of variable-shape...
...screen image.
And it just... It seems like it really needs that wide-screen splendour.
I'm pretty darn impressed by that little... What in the world was that?
I'll tell you, that Frank.
Well, he's written a dozen books or so, just on the Alamo alone.
- And the technic... - I've written 36 books, thank you.
- Thirty-six books. - Yes.
- That's a career. - I'll list them now...
...and that'll take us to reel four.
Thirty-six books.
Six of them, you've admitted, are the same book...
- ...just repackaged, on the Alamo. - Exactly.
Yes. Very good.
Yeah, and 12 of them are volumes of my autobiography, so...
Yeah. I know.
Jeez, Paden! Her old man ain't even cold yet.
This is such a beautifully shot film.
It really cries out for the wide screen, don't you think?
- And it just doesn't have it. - You know, I think they're...
Much like the people who really know the question...
...of the type of holsters these guys are wearing...
...I think the audience that understands the nature of the screen frame...
...is in the same numbers.
That would be one handful out there in movie land.
- If you're a film buff, you'd care. - You would know, though.
And Frank is not only a film buff, but a film expert.
And here's the wagon train... I mean, this guy's doing everything.
They did the same thing in Wyatt Earp, Costner and cast.
I mean, they're doing the entire Western story...
...so it's every scene you could possibly do.
Here's, you know, the wagon train crossing the...
Crossing the river, à la Red River. I mean, it's the river crossing.
There's the shot from inside the wagon. That's right out of Red River.
- Right out of How the West Was Won. - Yeah.
How the West Was Won is the movie that attempts to put...
...every single Western cliché into one movie.
That one stretches out to three and a half hours...
...whereas this one gets it in in two hours and a bit.
- Costner once said... - That was in Cinerama...
...and it would bore the audience if we were to talk about that.
Cinerama is another whole problem...
...and it leaves those awful lines on the screen now when you watch it.
It seemed like a good idea at the time.
Costner said How the West Was Won was his favourite movie as a kid...
...and I think that's borne out in both this film...
...which he didn't have that much control over...
...but, certainly, Wyatt Earp...
...which does the railroad, the wagon train, the gunfights, the buffalo.
You know, the railroad is the missing element in this movie.
If you're going to have...
...that one extra thing in a Western movie...
...usually the railroad can come in in some way...
...and here there is no railroad yet.
The railroad should be coming into Silverado at some point.
And if it doesn't come into Silverado...
...then Silverado becomes a ghost town.
The mules on the wagon train are a really nice touch and very authentic.
When we did this Mountain Meadows Massacre show...
...we had a huge budget meeting and debate...
...on whether we were gonna do mules, horses or oxen...
...to be absolutely authentic, you know, since it is the History Channel.
And, of course, how expensive it is to get a yoke of oxen these days...
...which is something I hadn't known before.
Just how much it costs to get a yoke of oxen...
...helped us to decide on horses.
- Horses are very nice. - And cheap.
Yeah, nice and cheap.
Although they eat a lot, and you gotta feed them.
I mean, just...
This is actually a big, big production.
Oh, there she is again. A little smile.
You know, you can't even tell she's a gal yet, hardly.
Yeah, this is the beginning of the confusing part of the triangle...
...if it is a triangle...
...because she's sort of pairing off with Kevin Kline here.
- Now, is...? - Later on, it'll just go somewhere else.
Could I just comment how odd it is that the wagon train is going off the road...
...and the two guys are riding on...
Oh, there's two roads. I don't know what I...
The trail has diverged. It shows how little I know.
And see the people walking? This is very authentic, by the way.
Most people who were on wagon trains...
Not most, all people on wagon trains walked...
...because you didn't wanna wear your stock out.
One often had to dump out things along the way...
...as the stock wore out.
Along the way. It's how they built Salt Lake City:
By going along the trail, collecting all the stuff the forty-niners had left.
And here's this wonderful movie set they built...
...not very far from Santa Fe.
Was built especially for this movie...
...and it's still a major movie set there today.
It's where we shot The Missing recently.
We used it in some of our television documentaries.
Of course, Wyatt Earp was shot here. Lonesome Dove was shot here.
That's a great shot...
...and that was sort of the view from when I lived in Santa Fe...
...before I donated that house to my second wife.
That was my view from my window. It was just incredible.
I loved that house.
Yeah, most movie sets have curves in them...
...so they appear to be infinite around corners.
And speaking of curves, here's Rosanna Arquette, finally.
But Silverado is almost unique among Western towns in movies...
...in that it's just one long, straight street.
- And clearly, quite a sizeable set. - Yeah.
- It's a big set. - Just even from that last shot, it's...
Unless they do something very clever with painting...
No, no, it's all there.
And it's interesting, in fact...
...because fire is so integral to the climax of this film.
Not very long ago, half that set burned down...
...and they lost it.
And it was a big, big fire out there.
Because they don't like what I want.
She's got a nice hat.
- And good teeth. - I almost misheard you, so...
She's making an assumption about herself there, I suppose.
I don't know. Now we're watching.
Finally, a female appears...
...and we're actually watching the film for the first time.
We're absolutely captivated. So she's working, you see.
We say, "There she is, there's a pond...
...maybe a bathing scene is coming."
I thought Paul would at least mention...
...that there were some lovely trees there in the New Mexico landscape.
This is a different... This is a different ranch.
It's called the Cook Ranch, and it's also very near Santa Fe.
And this house sits there, and that pond is there.
We used this for "Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid."
We've been shooting these television documentaries around Santa Fe...
...and so we used all of these sets.
And there's a Western town set connected with this.
And part of Cook Ranch, also, was that adobe fort we saw...
...at the very beginning.
And so it's a wonderful set.
A lady runs this big ranch, and she just rents, you know...
She's built these movie buildings, she keeps them up, they're wonderful...
...and she uses them to supplement her income as a rancher...
...because, as you know, it's tough times for ranchers in the West, guys.
This has a more Georgia O'Keeffe look, though.
There.
I'll tell you, I used to... When I drove home...
...from the University of New Mexico back up to my house in Santa Fe...
...it was 75 miles.
I'd always time it right around 6, 7:00...
...depending on the time of the year, and get that light.
- That is spectacular. - And it's just spectacular.
And you understand why artists, and now filmmakers, love New Mexico.
That's not a plug for New Mexico, that's a statement of fact.
The light is breathtaking.
I will not disagree.
Joe Seneca, he's a great old character actor.
What else has he been in?
He goes back all the way to the '30s.
He was in a lot of those...
...all-black-cast films of the '30s and '40s...
...and then...
...seems to have disappeared from the screen for many years...
...and then, in the '70s and '80s, started showing up again.
Always in minor roles, sadly.
"Gone to town." That's always a bad...
In the Western, that's always a bad, bad sign, "Gone to town"...
...because we know what town is. There's nothing good in town.
- And in this case, she's... We're right. - Yeah.
"Gone to town."
But, again, I think there's something that David Milch has brought forward...
...in a grittier way than other Westerns, in terms of brothel culture in...
Oh, my goodness, yes. And it's very authentic.
- Yeah, I know. - Truly. I mean, it really is, and...
Very well done. Although the power of that show...
We're not doing commentary on Deadwood...
...but the power of that show is the brilliance of the writing.
- Yeah. - Which really relates to this.
Kasdan's real strength... I mean, he's getting great scenes here.
Doesn't miss his shot, but he's just such a brilliant writer and storyteller.
Although he has a...
There is a meandering quality to Kasdan's scripts.
I mean, they...
He is not constricted by structure, as many screenwriters seem to be.
- Let's call it leisurely. - Leisurely, yeah.
But it's relaxing. It's nice.
Many of the great Westerns, though, are.
Wouldn't you say, Frank? They really are.
They're very leisurely films...
...they take a while getting where they're going...
...then it builds to the big climax. I mean, that's the nature of it.
And landscape is so vital and so integral to the story...
...that you spend a lot of time showing scenics.
But I think that's one of the things...
...that frustrates some with Kevin Costner's Westerns...
...that they are long.
And that in the new Hollywood sensibility...
...having a three-hour-plus movie is not okay, commercially.
It's problematic. And yet Kevin Costner would say:
"No, to do the story the way that I wanna do it...
...you have to sort of let it play out in Western time."
It's always been a problem with theatre owners, of course...
...because the longer a film, the less showings you can get per day...
...especially in the evenings, on weekends, during your big time.
It's sort of interesting now...
...with the growth of the medium we're dealing with right here, DVD...
...has really changed all the rules.
Now you can make a film that people are gonna watch...
...in a more leisurely setting at home.
And now that DVDs are responsible for more income than the box office...
...for films, which is just astonishing, but nevertheless true...
...I think we're gonna... I think it's freed up filmmakers.
Well, the advent of director's cut...
...as well as deleted scenes as packages...
And this is a movie that I would love to know...
...what both a director's cut might look like...
...in terms of it stretching out and fleshing out...
...some of the themes that are hinted at but not fully fleshed out...
...and also what some of the deleted scenes might be...
...that they would choose.
Right. They...
I'm actually in the DVD that was just released...
...of cast in Costner's Wyatt Earp.
I did a "making of" documentary...
...did a talking-head gig for CBS back when the film came out...
...and they had that documentary on...
...but my wife, who I didn't know at the time...
...is in one of the deleted scenes. She's in the wedding scene.
And so there we are. That's kind of kismet, I suppose.
- It was meant to be. - It was meant to be.
It's interesting that as attention spans seem to be getting shorter...
...the average film today is substantially longer...
...than the average film was, say, 30 years ago.
That's true, yeah.
And I'm not quite sure how to account for that.
And if you go farther back, to the '30s...
...it was common for films to be 60 minutes long.
Now all movies are well over two hours, it seems like.
It's rare to see anything shorter than that.
Well, two. I think they tend to be two hours...
...then in the teen market, an hour and 50-something minutes, max.
But I think the old, you know, sort of the Gene Autry Westerns...
...that clocked in at 73 minutes or something...
...but were shown as double features.
Or not shown... Just, you know, they're very short.
The dusters were big after the Italian Westerns.
The Italian Westerns really made the duster a part.
And so did Walter Hill.
You know, in The Long Riders, Walter Hill did a lot for the duster.
Are those actually accurate to the period?
Yes, they... Well, I'm not sure this one he's wearing is...
...which is very stylish, very nice.
Either there or in the J. Peterman catalogue.
Look at that. That's a saloon worthy of St. Louis, of course...
...but nevertheless, here it is in Silverado.
Sort of smoky, but not too smoky.
Smoky, but not too smoky.
Because if was as smoky as it should be...
...we wouldn't be able to see anything.
The second major female character has arrived.
And the only one who actually has a full personality through...
That's true.
And, again, I think they're sort of edgy characterisations that...
...Kasdan was doing, in terms of this show.
Well, the protagonists are all liberal guys, aren't they? You know?
She had just done The Year of Living Dangerously...
...where she had played a Eurasian woman.
- Eurasian boy. That's the whole point. - God, you're right, boy. That's right.
She was so brilliant. Yeah, she is such a fine actress.
Stella, are you the midnight star herself?
He went to Indiana University when I was there.
And he was big in the drama school.
- You didn't teach him, though? - No, no, I was a student.
- Oh, okay. - I'm very young, Steve.
I don't know if you knew that.
He's much older than I... Kline is much older than I am, of course.
It's just that your distinguished career leads me to think...
Yeah, you would think. I just started out... I started out young.
That's a good line.
A lot of British accents in this Western.
- But, in fact, in reality... - Lot of British capital in the West.
There would be a lot of accents in the West.
You really would be meeting a lot of people with a lot of different accents.
As I said, a lot of British money maybe made its way into the West.
I'm not sure how many British accents would've gotten there.
Wouldn't have gotten there...
Well, think about Billy the Kid, and the whole story of Billy the Kid...
...which we also just did in Investigating History.
And, actually, the governor has appointed me as the historian...
...on the project to dig up Billy the Kid...
...which has met with considerable resistance...
...from citizens of some of the towns in New Mexico, especially Silver City.
They object because...?
Well, they're afraid that we won't find him.
My goodness, that'll be a little problem.
And, of course, one of the central characters in that...
...is a British rancher who hires Billy, and he's killed, and so...
And the men who kill him are all Irish. I mean, they're immigrants.
Lincoln County, New Mexico, very isolated in the 1870s...
...was full of foreign folk.
But that's what America is, I believe. A nation of immigrants, if I recall.
And I'm an immigrant myself, so there you go.
That's a nice... Look, he's got a new hat.
Isn't that a new hat, that white one? That's nice.
- But still, very white teeth. - Yeah.
Well, he's a great villain because he takes such joy in his evil.
- He is. He's very good. - He's just always in such a good mood.
Well, he's such a good actor, anyway, too.
Actually, I think he's a more interesting villain...
...than most Westerns have...
...because he's not entirely...
Well, I mean, he's bad, but he's not entirely bad.
Right, and those are the best.
You've either gotta be the sort of happy-go-lucky villain like this guy...
...or you've just gotta be so evil that you just exude it, and people...
- The Darth Vader kind of figure. - Right.
People are just so in awe of your evil.
This is a great moment.
That's gonna be trouble. See, the law is corrupt.
And often in the Western, the law is corrupt.
And you know what? Often in the West, the law was corrupt.
It's just so interesting.
Now we're back at the Tent Rock area...
...which is doubling for this guy's homestead.
And Joe Seneca, very ill-advisedly, puts his gun down...
...at a great distance from where he's going out into the open.
That's another Western shorthand scene...
...that you know he's going to be dead soon.
- No way around it. - And now he's heard something.
That's bad.
Nice patch.
Yeah. Now, that guy is much more in the straight villain line.
The eye patch.
Yep. This is gonna be bad.
Now, what exactly does Danny Glover want to do with his land here?
Is that ever explained?
- You know... - He wants to homestead it.
It's never explained in any Western. I mean, think about Shane.
They're trying to build a farm. It's clearly... They're at 7000 feet.
You couldn't grow anything up in the Grand Tetons, you know.
I mean, it's all sage prairie.
But nevertheless, they're fighting the ranchers.
What exactly is this land going to be good for...
...other than as ranch land?
Because, you know, out in the West, you just want a piece of land.
That's what it's about in America in the 19th century.
It's always about land.
He could build a bed and breakfast there.
You see why they call them the Tent Rocks.
Another plug for scenic New Mexico.
Again, this is where the final climactic gunfight in the Wyatt Earp movie is.
It's also a scene in Young Guns.
Big gunfight takes place there in Young Guns.
And it's not far from Cochiti. It's not very far from Santa Fe.
- He's gonna be mad now. - Yeah.
The hat.
Well, the bad guys took the rifle, but they left the hat.
You know, and good hats like that are in short supply.
- Now we have the revenge setup. - Right.
Which is always important in the Western.
And indeed, as you look at Western history...
...revenge seems to be motivating a lot of people.
And, of course, in our own time...
...we understand that revenge motivates whole nations.
And seems to be a very strong motivator.
Let's simply examine the headlines, shall we?
Yeah, you don't have to go far.
You know, in fact, I wonder if...
...on a serious note, I guess...
...I wonder if current events don't make Westerns like this resonate more...
...and these themes, these powerful themes in good Westerns...
...work for people in a way they didn't...
...in the last, calmer 20 years we've had...
...where indeed we didn't seem to be confronting evil.
Actually, that'll be an interesting point...
...to see if there is a revival of the Western...
...precisely because it did allow people to see the world...
...in starker terms of good and evil, the classic Western.
The classic Western always does.
And in a way that, again, I think that Manichaean view has been revived.
Well, in the classic Western, also, the good...
The stark contrast between good and evil...
In the best of the Westerns, your hero is...
Your protagonist is often a man of mixed feelings...
...and is sort of torn...
...but, finally, always does the right thing.
- Think of Shane, think of High Noon. - High Noon.
- Think of The Searchers. - Right.
I mean, it's always that moral problem.
That goes way back to William S. Hart.
They called him the "good bad man."
And so it's present from the very earliest Westerns that we have.
Always...
Well, I think even Deadwood...
...which is not that sort of good/evil, easily cast...
...but even there, the Bullock character ultimately is a troubled person...
...but clearly trying, in some way, to do the right thing.
Well, he's the lawman who wants to hang up his badge...
...but now has to put it back on. It's the Wyatt Earp story.
Even more interesting is the saloon owner...
...the Swearengen character...
...who turns out to be a man of real moral centre.
Or at least a man of some vision...
...that the future requires adaptability and change.
Absolutely. Yeah.
In his evil, does all sorts of good. It's just stunning.
Right, and that is, in some ways, though, again...
...going back to the Western frame.
That sort of hero who isn't... Doesn't wanna wear the badge again...
...or the Gary Cooper character in High Noon...
...who has to do what he has to do ultimately, even if he's troubled by it.
That's good shooting.
See, now, that establishes that he is good with his gun.
You know, so he's the one bad guy that doesn't miss.
Well, you've gotta have that set up...
...or else the final scene with Kevin Kline won't mean anything.
That is true.
And so you must always set your villain up as being powerful.
Look at that, he spilled a little coffee on himself. I hate that.
- When you fire your gun and...? - Yeah.
I think Dennehy is very much a textured character in this...
...because he's willing to do what has to be done...
...but if he doesn't have to do bad, he doesn't.
- I mean, he sort of... - Right.
He sort of... In his own mind, he knows that he just has to go the limit.
Now, why is the sheriff wearing chaps, though? I'm puzzled by that.
He's not out on the range. He's in town.
I mean, but he's got these leather chaps on.
- It's just a fashion statement. - I see, okay.
I'd like to see Rosanna Arquette in those, but...
That's a different movie.
By the way, having been an extra in a couple of films...
...I now pay a lot of attention to the extras in the background.
This is a great introduction to Goldblum. I love his...
A very Western character, of course.
The most Western of all of our characters here.
But I love him as an actor. I mean, I just think he's great.
- Another stylish guy, with his fur coat. - Yeah.
Nice hat. You know, that's... That's good.
That's a good line because you don't often see that in Westerns.
After a killing, it is a mess, and who's gonna clean it up?
You always wonder.
Who comes around and actually picks up the dead bodies, takes them away?
But isn't that one of the things that...? Not dead bodies...
...but that sheriffs certainly had to do in towns like this...
- ...is, at least, clean up the mess. - Yeah.
You know, shovel off the horse manure...
...or at least drag off the drunks from the street, at some point.
Well, something you never see in Westerns is just the manure problem.
I mean, it really is just an incredible problem in Western towns...
...and everywhere in the 19th century.
Well, until they invent Smell-o-vision, or until that gets spread...
- ...we're gonna have a tough time... - Look at that street, though.
- Do you see a cowpatty anywhere? - There are horses everywhere.
Horses everywhere, no one seems to be doing anything.
And no mud.
I mean, it's also just a... Not too dusty, not too muddy.
- Just nice and clean. - Nice and clean.
- There she is, she's gone to town. - The fallen woman, yeah.
Oh, you hate to see that.
It's gonna break his heart. And he's having a tough day.
Yeah, well, Dad's dead.
Yeah, there you go.
And you were saying there weren't female...
There are a lot of female roles in this movie, Frank.
I think we were saying there were not a lot of fully developed female roles.
Where were you when they needed you? It's too late, Mal.
Mal hasn't been doing what a man's gotta do:
Protecting the homestead.
See, he's got that...
...really nice hat, which is completely inauthentic.
And sideburns.
Well, there we go. That's very nice.
You know, the professional gambler really was a major character...
...in Western history, of course.
And some of them have become famous.
But there was a whole culture...
...and it lived off the underside of Western boomtown life.
And they ran a circuit.
They would move from town to town, and they all knew each other...
...and they were often involved in these violent acts.
That's why they're so famous. Men like Ben Thompson, Bill Longley.
And they are responsible for a lot of our famous Wild West stories...
...and a lot of the violence.
And this was all before poker became the new cable TV...
- That's right, before poker... Yeah. - Cable TV staple.
Yeah, they would be bucking the tiger back in those days. We have the dance.
- But did they play Texas Hold'em? - No, they did not play Texas Hold'em.
- Okay. - Another great Western tradition:
Any time you see the homesteaders getting together for a party...
...you know trouble's coming.
Nobody ever got to the end of a party and just cleared off the tables.
No, all the tables have to be upturned.
And here, I don't know about you, but I find this inexplicable.
This Scott Glenn suddenly being the romantic connection to...?
Yeah, when did this happen? I don't know.
I'm just assuming there must be other scenes that were shot...
...that would ease us over from Kevin Kline to Scott Glenn, but...
Well, you know, she's sort of the only really pretty girl in the whole movie...
...and so I think they're gravitating to her. I think that would be natural.
But each one of them seems to have to be moving on, of course...
...in wonderful Western tradition.
And I think it's fair to say that a single white woman...
...might be better off not being single.
And here they come. Here come the bad guys, of course.
This is gonna be trouble.
Again, Paul, not to take issue with your love of New Mexican landscape...
...but explain to me again where the appropriate farmland is there.
You know, you can irrigate.
Of course, this is all up by Santa Fe, and it's pretty tough.
Pretty tough growing season. We used to, when I lived up there...
- Oh, my God! - They shot a pig.
- See, I'll take a lot, but not that.
That is bad. Oh, look at that. That's the old...
And now it's even worse. They're destroying the barbecue.
Oh, he's gonna die. That's not gonna work.
Yep. And why? Because we don't know who he is.
- See that little adobe house there? - Good shot, though.
That is the house we use in our documentary...
...on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid...
...to kill Butch and Sundance. We used that for Bolivia.
That's a little movie magic for you. TV magic.
Because this is out at the Cook Ranch, where they're doing it.
Good shot.
You know, all of them seem to have the same kind of rifles.
You know, if you have an eye patch like that...
...wearing the kerchief over your mouth and nose...
...seems a little superfluous, doesn't it?
He's a fairly identifiable guy.
Oh, he's going after them. Oh, that's nice.
- That was a Gene Autry kind of mount. - Yeah, absolutely.
Very, very nicely done.
We won't quit! You bastards!
- Is that a fair mix? - I'm saving lives here.
The straight stuff would blister boot leather.
That is a very traditional scene, you know.
The old attack on the homesteaders, they're not gonna give up.
And again, and I don't mean this in a negative way...
...just the use of all these old Western clichés.
And they're all in here...
...because this is a homage, in many ways...
...to the grand old Westerns.
Which is kind of a problem.
As they attempted, like Kasdan's doing here...
...to reinvent the Western and make it relevant to modern audiences...
...they're both bound by the past and at the same time...
...trying to do something new, and it's a tough transition.
Nothing happened, Tyree.
How did he get there?
Last I saw, he was chasing the bad guys.
- And now he's got a different outfit. - He just kept a-riding, that's all.
By the way, women in the saloon was a complete no-no.
The saloon was the man's world.
And one of the reasons women were not in the saloon...
...was to avoid this very problem, of guys getting drunk...
One of the reasons the West was so violent...
...and one of the reasons that so few people were killed...
It goes hand in hand.
...is that much of the violence grew out of the saloon culture.
And after, you know, a whole day of drinking...
...because they started early and they went late...
...when you finally got into that brawl, you couldn't hit anyone with a gun.
But you could do some damage to one another...
...with fists, knives, bites and so forth.
At least, this is the certain... The earlier backwoods culture...
...where people did a lot of eye-gouging, nose-biting.
The whole problem with dentistry, again...
...and why people did not have perfect teeth.
Because they were getting knocked out all the time.
I should have killed you long ago.
But they had refined their fisticuffs dramatically by the late 19th century.
After the Civil War, they'd gotten away from that Davy Crockett...
Right, they didn't bite noses off quite as rapidly.
The I-let-my-toenails-grow-this-long-so- I-can-gouge-out-people's-eyes culture.
But I don't think... You know, in the South...
...nose-biting really was, as we understand it...
...an affront to one's honour.
I'm not sure, in the Old West, it had quite the same...
Quite the same value.
One of the commentaries, in fact, on the famous fight...
...between the homesteader and Shane at the...
You know, before the climactic gunfight in Shane.
- In the bar. - No, no, no.
Later, when they're fighting at the ranch.
When he's beating him so he won't interfere with him...
...going down to face down the bad guys.
It's just how realistic it is.
They're just kind of gouging each other and wrestling and rolling around...
...instead of the traditional fistfight that we see so often in Westerns.
Especially those Gene Autry Westerns.
- Gene only used his fists. - Yeah, he only uses his fists.
- That's the cowboy code. - Yeah.
And again, coming into the ranch there...
...with a beautiful New Mexico mountain in the background.
- There's a nice little stunt. - Nice little stunt.
- For what purpose, I'm not sure. - Well, that's this little kid.
Now the kid's in trouble.
See, now they're picking on kids.
They shot a pig and now they're picking on this little kid.
They've established their credentials as bad, yeah.
What's the problem, Swan?
Yeah, what's the problem?
And he seems to intervene even when he's not needed.
I mean, like, you know...
- Emmett. - McKendrick.
And they have a past.
But it's never exactly clear how they all knew each other.
That's because we've been talking through this whole movie...
...rather than paying attention.
Well, the Scott Glenn character killed his father and went to jail for it.
Because I've actually watched this film, so I know this.
But that seems to be about it.
Why he killed him, we're not quite sure. Or else I just forgot.
He killed him because a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do, and I think...
Oh, there's the guy with the patch.
So these are the guys who attacked Scott Glenn...
- ...at the very beginning of the film. - Right.
And that's how he ended up with this horse...
- ...which started out their horse. - That's right.
It's all wheels within wheels.
And indeed horses were very important in the West...
...and horse thievery was a major crime...
...kind of like stealing cars today, no question about it.
People were always stealing people's horses...
...and people were always getting very, very upset about it.
And they truly would hang you for it. Usually without a trial...
...because why bother with that?
Some places, horse stealing carried a stiffer penalty...
...than crimes against people.
Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed.
They had a very high sense of property values in the Old West...
...because they didn't have a lot of property.
And when you worked as hard for what they had...
...you just didn't take it well that people would take it away from you.
And people often took the law into their own hands.
Which is one of the reasons that that collective violence...
...you were talking about earlier was so common.
I mean, the vigilantes up in Montana, I believe, hanged about 50 people...
...during their run...
...and at least 20 of them deserved to be hanged.
I was gonna say, who deserved it?
Well, it starts breaking down about midway...
...and they start not being particular about who they're stringing up.
If you listen to what vigilantes say, they all deserve it.
They all deserve, yes.
But usually, when people look a little more closely...
...at who the victims were and who the vigilantes were...
...sometimes they discover patterns that move away from good and evil...
...or enforcing the law in the absence of duly appointed authorities.
There were other agendas in play.
It quickly comes to settling old scores...
...or taking care of economic issues.
- Yeah. - What a handy way to do it.
This sheriff's office was used as the telegraph office in The Missing.
I can tell because of the window placements.
Is that bar set still there, or is that an interior somewhere else?
That saloon, I believe, burned down.
No, it was an interior there at the ranch...
...but it burned down.
Half the set burnt. It was a huge fire, great big fire.
- They rebuild? - No, no, they didn't.
And, in fact, some of the buildings are still marked.
So unless they come up with a Western that needs a burned-out set...
Oh, it was completely destroyed, yeah.
They saved one of the streets and some of the outbuildings...
...but this big saloon was one of the buildings that was touched by fire.
Actually, it's still there, part of it is, but it's not dressed out anymore.
Those Western towns are very vulnerable to that.
Old Tucson burned down. Didn't Melody Ranch burn down?
Melody Ranch? Yeah, I mean, they... It's back in use, though, today.
That's where they're shooting Deadwood now.
I heard. I couldn't believe they were shooting Deadwood there.
Somewhere, Gene Autry is rolling over in his grave...
...at the way in which the Melody Ranch has been reutilised.
They gave the Golden Boot for Best Western to Deadwood this year.
- Really? - There was murmuring in the crowd.
You could tell that there's a lot of mixed feeling on that.
- I just think it's so brilliantly written. - Right.
Much like this movie. This is a very finely written film...
...and characterisations are great.
What he really does in Deadwood, like Kasdan can do...
...is he creates these very compelling characters.
He has the advantage, though, of being able to stretch it out...
...over 12 hours or whatever in a season.
This movie, because it's down to two hours and 10 minutes...
...the truncated time frame limits a little bit...
...that leisurely development of character.
Everything has to be done in shorthand, of course.
Most of the characters are fairly well developed.
I think Jeff Goldblum is probably not... You never get much of a sense of who...
- Who he is. - Or what side he's on until the end...
...when he clearly turns.
But you don't really know why he did.
How many of these characters are in The Big Chill?
- Kevin Kline, Jeff Goldblum. - Kevin Kline, Jeff Goldblum.
Kevin Costner is the corpse.
Kevin Costner is the corpse who's being laid out at the beginning.
Which is why I think he gets this role. It's to make up for that.
Danny Glover is in other movies of Kasdan.
- He's been in Grand Canyon. - Right, Grand Canyon.
- It was definitely... He had a... - He has a stock company.
He has a company, and I think that's also not atypical of Westerns...
...that they depended on their group.
No, it's interesting.
I complained earlier about how Eastern the sensibilities of the actors are...
...and how identified they are with more urban dramas and everything.
But, of course, the story of the West is that everybody came from some place.
For the most part, even by the 1870s, no one had been born there.
- Except the ethnic people, of course. - People had been born there.
But you know what I mean.
In terms of the population, the vast majority of the population...
...they were coming from somewhere else. Especially the white folks.
Except in a place like New Mexico...
...where you did have a significant population of people...
Of Mexican people.
At least, in and around the Rio Grande Valley.
The Hispanic population had been there for hundreds of years...
...and the, of course, native population had been there for hundreds of years.
And that's, as we've said, entirely absent in this movie.
Right. But all the white people would have come from somewhere else.
Within, in fact... Unless they were descendants of old mountain men...
...and then they're going to be half-blood...
...because they're gonna be from mixed marriages.
All the white people...
Would've come within the last 10 or 15 years.
- Especially after the railroad. - Right.
Nice saddle. Look at that.
And, of course, all the Western history buffs...
...are going nuts over the saddles. They're very modern.
That is a particularly spectacular gun he has.
- And here he is just doing a fast draw. - And I'm sure that's a period tin can.
Yeah, the old tin can. Look at that. Very nice.
I do not believe that cactus, by the way, is native to this area...
...and is a piece of set dressing.
This guy's making a serious mistake.
This is where they beat him up, and thus he's gonna be mad.
Even madder later.
But once again...
...instead of simply just shooting him in the head...
And getting this over with, yeah.
They decide to ride over him a couple times, breaking his ribs...
...and then complain that he's not dead yet.
You know, they all have guns. Just shoot him.
But, you know, if they did, Frank, let me explain a little cinema.
- I'm not quite sure what you mean. - Let me explain a little cinema to you.
If they just shot him, then we'd have no movie.
But it is true. Why do they have to ride a horse back and forth over him?
It's working for me. I don't...
- You know... - But we will have a little bit...
...of payback later on, so he is setting up...
Major payback. They're setting up major payback later.
- And payback in kind. - Right.
They're really mad at him because he's wearing that very modern holster...
...that is not correct to the period.
- Danny Glover to the rescue. - There we go.
Oh, see, now they're gonna shoot him. They just wanted to torture him first.
Now, see, I don't understand that line, "I don't wanna kill you." Why not?
What is the issue here? Now, here's a good guy making the same error...
...and this often happens in the Western...
...some sort of moral sensibility preventing him from killing them all.
- That was good. - He had to wait for the person to draw.
Danny Glover has the same rules that John Wayne did.
You don't fire until you've been fired upon...
- ...that's just all there is to it. - That's the Gene Autry cowboy code...
- That's right. - ...right there.
You don't shoot first and you don't shoot anyone who's unarmed.
If you have to shoot them, the shoulder will do.
- Right. - Here's the way the West really worked:
Out in Cimarron, New Mexico, in the 1870s...
...Davy Crockett's grandson... Well, grandnephew, lived...
...and he was named Davy Crockett, and he was a bad, bad character...
...and he had killed two buffalo soldiers in the saloon there in Cimarron...
...and every time he came into town, he caused trouble and upset people...
...because he was just always threatening people and mouthing off...
...and just a bad-news guy.
So three of the leading citizens of the town got their shotguns...
...waited for him the next time he rode into town...
...and blew him out of the saddle with the shotguns from ambush.
And then they held a coroner's jury and they declared themselves...
...to have engaged in justifiable homicide.
And that's how they really took care of bad guys in the Old West.
- It's succinct, it's to the point. - To the point and no problem.
- Gets the job done. - No problem.
Again, not worrying about the niceties about shooting someone in the hand...
...to have their gun fly away.
Well, that's a Gene Autry thing, you know.
- Gene Autry, Roy Rogers thing. - Takes a particularly skilled eye.
Also, of course, you have to do that because you make films for children...
...and you don't wanna teach them the wrong lesson.
Teaching children they can shoot people's guns out of their hands...
- ...is not good either. - That goes back to the language issue.
In the Hayes Code era and the like, you had to be careful about language...
...so why not just have the character be very laconic.
Then you don't have to worry about whether they cuss...
- ...because they just say very little. - You can't say anything anyway.
Can't use language to its most effective...
And in the newer Westerns...
...you almost never hear anyone called a sidewinder anymore.
- I regret this. - I do too. I do too.
The loss of Gabby Hayes has been sad for all of us.
"You old sidewinder!"
Yeah, I remember that.
You know, I'm still reacting to the shooting of that pig.
That really bothered me for some reason.
It was a cute little pig, you know, and I'm having flashbacks...
...to the movie Babe the Pig, you know what I mean?
Which I had to watch with my kids over and over...
...and we couldn't eat bacon for the longest time.
And we talk about the way pigs have been transformed in the new Western.
- In Deadwood, of course, the pigs... - Oh, they eat the people, that's right.
They serve as the all-purpose garbage dump...
...including the way to get rid of...
So pigs, I'm afraid, they've lost their cuteness now.
As you know, because you and I both study the early American frontier...
...which bonds us, of course...
...and this allows us, also, to use the term "frontier" in Western history...
- Which we use very proudly. - We use proudly. Arrogantly, in fact.
But indeed there was a problem back then with wild pigs.
Truly attacking children and that sort of thing.
Well, the frontier settlers...
...in early American Appalachian frontier regions...
...they still, through the 19th century, just left their pigs to run wild.
- That's absolutely right. - Made them easy to take care of.
Plenty of forage for them to eat.
But it turned them into pretty wild animals pretty quickly.
And you know one of the things you never see in the wagon-train movies...
...are all the pigs that would be waddling along.
But truly, pigs, goats, cows, I mean, it's...
In the wagon train for the Mountain Meadows show that I'm doing...
...one of our problems was this wagon train that was wiped out in 1857...
...had 900 head of cattle with them, taking them to California.
And, you know, we couldn't afford 900 cows, so...
- You just do that with CGI? - We do, yeah.
But it just shows you the kind of stock that people would be driving...
...which meant they had herders along with it.
I've done some work on Kit Carson...
...and one of the most amazing stories about Kit Carson is that he and...
This is in '50, I think, 1850, '51.
...he and a couple of his old mountain-man buddies...
...decide that they're going to take 5000 head of sheep...
...from Taos and Santa Fe across the Sierras...
...to the California goldfields.
Thinking they're gonna make a killing by selling...
And they do. They buy up, at 25 cents a head...
...every sheep in New Mexico...
...and they herd them, can you believe this, all the way up.
They go up the Front Range and then over on the California Trail...
...herd them to the goldfields, sell them for $5 apiece and make a fortune.
- I just have this image of Kit Carson... - Of 5000 sheep.
Yeah, Kit Carson herding sheep all the way across the Humboldt.
Not quite as glamorous as the grand cattle drive.
It just doesn't work as a cinematic image.
I see the movie now, with Gabby Hayes. "Herd them up, kid. Get them moving."
- Yeah, it doesn't quite work. - Yeah.
The Wild West, where men were men and sheep were nervous.
Now, we have to have each of our protagonist brought down, one by one.
By the way, note the difference in the bars in the cell.
Between the prison we had earlier, which was a different movie set.
And by the way, I believe the bars in the cell in the earlier prison...
...were more authentic, the sort of square.
- Here we have the ones we're used to. - A little too modern.
A little too modern-looking here, so...
Like, of all the things the filmmakers wish to be criticised on...
- The state of the bars. - The accuracy of the bars.
So that's what...
No wonder filmmakers would wanna grab a gun...
...and start taking care of people.
It's just like, "What? They're criticising us for what?"
Though the interesting thing, in the people who've contacted me...
...always to sort of read things and look at things related to movies...
...the attention to certain details, I always find astonishing.
That certain people are very interested in getting certain details right...
...but aren't the least bit interested in getting other parts of historical detail.
That's to say, they may pay attention to "Were the bars this way in the jail?"...
...but have a script that's so outlandish...
...that why they want a historian to review it, I never understand.
That it has no basis in any place or time...
...but they want certain details right. "Were the buttons this way?"
Which is something I'm not equipped to talk about.
When I worked on The Missing, in fact...
...one of the more interesting calls I got from the producers was...
...what kind of seasoning would be used...
...on the fish that the hero was cooking for his daughter.
- Did you have an answer? - I did, you know.
I went to my wife, and she gave me the answer for that question.
But we actually went and got Sam Arnold...
...who runs a wonderful restaurant up in Denver called The Fort...
...and he has a cookbook on cooking on the Santa Fe Trail.
And I went and got his cookbook. And cilantro was the answer.
- That is what they would have... - Okay.
That's what they would've had. And they would've had that available.
So did my bit for Ron Howard and the gang on The Missing.
And I think people are just astonished by the historical accuracy of that film.
Everyone comments on it, of course.
But indeed there are so many interesting historical Westerns...
...in which they pay very, very close attention to detail...
...and then are completely wrong in all the great aspects of the story...
...completely wrong in the characterisations.
But, boy, they have those buttons right.
Right. But sometimes one should say that doesn't matter.
That the film is... You know, the film stands on its own.
No, indeed.
You know, we did that big Custer exhibit at the Autry a decade ago...
...and much of it was on Custer in popular culture.
And my favourite Custer film is John Ford's Fort Apache...
...in which the cavalry is set in Arizona, everyone has a different name...
...you know, they're wiped out by Apaches...
...but it really gets to the heart of the Custer story and what Custer was.
Why his last stand was so important to Americans in a way that accurate films...
Right, and one could say that...
...about the various Tombstone movies and Wyatt Earp movies as well.
No offence to Lawrence Kasdan's Wyatt Earp...
...but I think My Darling Clementine is a brilliant film.
Has nothing to do with anything that may or may not have happened...
...at the O.K. Corral, much less set anywhere near Tombstone...
...but it's still a brilliant and powerful film.
Kasdan and Costner's Wyatt Earp is weighted down by history, in fact.
It's trying to be too close to what happened.
Absolutely. In fact, the film that Frank just worked on, The Alamo...
...I think suffers from that as well.
It's just weighted down by the history, which gets in the way of storytelling.
- It suffers from nothing, it's great. - It is great. It's a wonderful film.
I do think it is... I mean, to take a tour of the Alamo today...
...is still a fascinating thing, if only because it's one of the few sites...
I haven't been there for a few years, but that is...
Hasn't been reconstructed or revised in its historical interpretation.
- Not very much. - That was taken care of by history.
Not very much at all.
And here's the fire, which is ironic because, of course...
...the place really does burn down later. It's like:
I wonder if these stories from the past, the Alamo, Custer's Last Stand...
...again, won't have a new relevance in our own time.
In the revenge.
And this idea of the last stand and of, you know, people dying for freedom...
...I think, works for us in a way...
...that it didn't when this movie was made.
This is another great example of how Westerns...
More modern Westerns seem to be a bit more timid, oddly enough...
...in that they take the kid...
...kidnap him for God knows what reason...
...whereas in Once Upon a Time in the West...
...Sergio Leone just shoots him, you know?
Well, that's a wonderful scene in that film...
...in which he shorthands who, exactly, Henry Fonda is...
...and gets you over your own idea of who Henry Fonda is.
And that takes care of that, and we know where we are.
But in this, one of the bad guys is about to shoot the kid...
...and they're too soft-hearted to do it, so they just...
They take him off only because it's gonna cause trouble later.
Well, again, you've gotta have a plotline.
You would think a town this substantial...
...would have a little fire truck that could come and...
One of those fire engines. That would've been a big scene to do.
- Spent all the money on the saloon. - Yeah.
I don't think this is gonna work.
I don't think the fire brigade's gonna save this.
That just shows us, again, how pragmatic Brian Dennehy is.
- He's not even trying. - No. He just walks up, "Give it up."
Fire, yeah. And, of course, to be a historian again...
...fire was, of course, a great problem in Western communities.
- Everything was built of wood. - Not just Western, everywhere.
But in the West in particular.
At least back in the East, they did have firefighting equipment.
But, of course, it's why we have things like the Great Chicago Fire.
I think also, obviously, for the West...
...the aridity of much of the West makes fires that much more dangerous.
A problem that continues through to the present.
And people are lighting everything with fire.
People are keeping warm with fire. People are cooking with fire.
And so it's a lot of problems.
And so fire was something...
...everyone lived with and everyone feared.
And a tinderbox environment with little water...
- ...to keep things... - Right.
Although one of the greatest fires of the 19th century, of course...
...was up in Wisconsin.
That fire that killed hundreds and hundreds of people...
...right almost at the time of the Great Chicago Fire...
...and is kind of overlooked because Chicago gets all the attention.
But every community in the West was touched by fire.
Really was a problem. And, of course, is again today.
Now it's very relevant mainly because communities are building out into...
Places just like we're seeing this filming going on.
We've had such a dry period in the West in the last five years...
...it's just been unbelievable.
It's just lucky for the rest of the town of Silverado...
...that this one building seems to be set off from the rest of the town.
And that is because the building is, of course, an entirely different set.
No, it's somewhere else entirely. That's why they're shooting around it.
So that works very well for them.
And, no, it's actually, yeah...
Because I think, again, it's not just one building that usually burns...
- ...many go when... - Oh, yes, everything goes.
Look at those hats, I mean... I'm on hats again.
Is that feathers on his hat? Is that what he's got? Brian Dennehy.
Looks like it.
- Now we have... - He's a bit of a fop.
By the way, both those characters, of course, had beards...
...and in the 19th century, after the Civil War...
...beards were in style.
If you wanna talk about historicity in Westerns...
...watching hair and watching beards is important.
At the time of the Alamo, for instance, hardly anyone would've had a beard...
...and no one would have had, at least on the American side, a moustache.
That would've been highly unusual, in terms of style.
Few people would've had really long hair by that time.
Hair was starting to get short.
You'd have to be older, you'd have to be kind of a throwback...
...to the revolutionary generation, like Davy Crockett was...
...to be wearing your long hair. Or be identified as a plainsman.
I mean, a kind of affected Western character.
You're really doing it for style.
Hair in the late 19th century would've been, of course, quite short...
...and, again, if...
Except for those handful of very flamboyant characters.
If you're Buffalo Bill or you're Wild Bill Hickok or you're Custer...
...you're wearing it for effect. I mean, it's totally a statement.
Bringing your press agent along with you.
Hopefully people would notice.
Most people would have had short hair.
But beards indeed would have been quite prevalent...
...because after the Civil War and after Lincoln...
...everybody had a beard for a long time.
And the first presidents often set the style. I'm trying to think...
I believe the first president after the...
The first president after the Civil War without a beard...
...would've been Grover Cleveland, but he had a moustache.
And the first president without any facial hair...
...would've been William McKinley.
- You've got to go to 1900. Almost 1900. - Yeah, almost 1900.
And now, of course, our leaders are terrified of any facial hair whatsoever.
That's just... After Thomas Dewey lost to Truman...
- ...no facial hair anymore. - Well, AI Gore grew a beard...
- After. - ...and was widely ridiculed.
Well, he was having some issues, I think, some self-identification issues.
That's why I grew a beard.
I thought it was to cover the weak chin. I was unclear on that. I'm sorry.
- No. - Oh, that's gotta hurt.
That's hurt more.
I've always wondered how you throw a knife and actually hit somebody.
I mean, that's gotta be...
He's real good at it, as we will see.
I also often watch the maps and the photographs on the...
Oh, look at that! See, more knives. That's great.
Real Jim Bowie stuff.
There's the sort of Magnificent Seven moment, you know.
That's right. That's exactly the character.
James Coburn is so wonderful in that movie.
And Elmer Bernstein just died, who did that score.
That's such an identifiable score.
But those characters were so great in that movie.
That's why it's a fabulous Western.
And this plays off that with its cast. A very colourful cast of characters.
And, again, the same basic thematic construct...
...of these very sort of talented gunmen, all with a past...
...have to come to the rescue of the weak.
Yeah, and Magnificent Seven is a great Western...
...and has no more connection to the real West than this does.
Well, based, as it is, on a Japanese film.
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
But that's because...
It works because the characters are so great and the story is great.
And the West works, I think, for all these films...
...because of the setting it provides, which is this exotic.
You mentioned Brigadoon earlier.
I mean, it really is that, kind of, strange never-never land...
...where we can play out these morality tales...
...and have these colourful characters who couldn't exist anywhere else.
You know, the urban setting provides the same sort of thing...
...but in a very different way. Two different Americas.
It's interesting, as you said. We had The Alamo based on a real...
...and there are various... Obviously, the Tombstone movies...
...that base on, at least, an incident in the Western past...
...but otherwise most Westerns are set in this sort of mythic space...
...that doesn't exist in any specific time or place...
...or based on any specific incident. And when they do...
I guess it's striking to me, for example, and maybe...
...someone who's connected to the studios can speak to this...
...but why no major Lewis and Clark film is under development now...
...given all of the sort of fascination with Lewis and Clark in this moment.
And with the bicentennial... I don't know of any feature that's being developed.
There's no story. That's the problem with Lewis and Clark.
- They did do a movie. - The Far Horizons.
With Fred MacMurray and Charlton Heston.
Donna Reed as Sacagawea.
She didn't have her beads on in that movie.
I mean, the pearls that she wears in the Donna Reed TV show.
But, you know, it's a trip.
It's a trip, but nothing happens.
- Well... - You know, and so...
They are making, though, Lewis and Clark: The Musical...
...which is they're... We actually...
Okay, you can sing, you can sing on the trip, you know.
Sacagawea sings her great song about going to see the whale, I mean...
Well, there you go.
Lewis and Clark: The Opera has opened.
Why can you have Lewis and Clark: The Opera, Lewis and Clark: The Musical...
...but not Lewis and Clark: The Movie?
You know, I just don't think the journey works that well.
And they made a National Geographic documentary...
Since I'm making documentaries now, I pay close attention to these.
I think it's a tough story.
And the majestic scenics carry the IMAX.
Swooping kind of shot.
That kind of carries it, but otherwise there's no conflict.
Now here's a great movie moment coming up.
All right, pay attention.
He's gravely wounded in his head...
...but now that he knows his brother and his nephew have been captured...
...off comes the bandage.
Screw this, I'm putting on my cowboy hat.
That's right, this is... This is the buckle on the gun-belt.
- I'm not hurt anymore. - It's a miracle!
- Yeah. - It's a miracle, yeah.
Or he just has to work through the pain.
I think the historical Western, though, back to Lewis and Clark...
...the historical Western is a tough sell.
The failure of The Alamo recently...
- ...not as a film, of course... - Commercially.
But as a commercial product, has really damaged the prospects...
...for historical Westerns.
Although The Missing also was a disappointment for the studios...
...interestingly, the two successful Westerns of the last year...
...have been Hidalgo, which is complete fantasy...
Made $70 million.
I mean, it wasn't a blockbuster but it didn't make 20.
And then, of course, Open Range...
...which also did about the same amount of business.
Right. These are period... But they're not based on...
I'm talking about really people trying to do Western history as film.
Well, that's my point, in fact. They made more money...
...than the historical Westerns...
...or even The Missing, which has a historical basis.
And, of course, part of the problem for The Alamo...
...was that in our modern day...
...you cannot make the villains evil anymore.
It's why Lord of the Rings worked so magnificently.
You need to cheer at the end. And in The Alamo, since we have to...
...now be much more sensitive to both the causes of the Texas revolution...
...why the men are fighting there, and then to the Mexican protagonists...
...you've got no great evil that you're fighting.
And it was actually a problem...
...with John Wayne's 1960 Alamo movie as well.
He was also was very careful in his portrayal of the Mexicans and so...
You don't know anything about the Mexicans in that movie.
- You don't hate them enough. - Yeah.
That's what you've got to do to make that film work...
...and to make the ending of it work, and so...
And that's why when you make a film like this...
...you can have an entire army of bad guys...
...and there's no ameliorating circumstance...
...about how bad these guys are.
- Don't have to explain away anything. - So let's shoot them all.
You don't have to explain it.
That's the problem with the historical Westerns.
Also why it's tough to do Indian wars movies anymore.
Other than converting it in a Dances With Wolves way.
- Absolutely. - You get away with that more easily.
Still that was a grand boys adventure story, when you think about it.
Dances With Wolves was as traditional as can be.
You know, it's The Last of the Mohicans.
It is inverted, and the Indians are the heroes...
...but Indians are the heroes in The Last of the Mohicans.
Good Indians, bad Indians.
In fact, the bad Indian is the same character, Wes Studi, in both films.
Interestingly, Michael Blake, who I got to know pretty well...
...when I was doing the Custer exhibit for the Autry...
...he had written a novel on Custer.
That's the novel he wrote after Dances With Wolves.
He'd just come off the Oscar with Dances With Wolves...
...and he had read some of my stuff on Custer...
...and so we got together and became friends.
He wrote this great Custer novel, and Custer became a hero...
...because he was fascinated by the complexity of Custer.
And then he couldn't get it made...
...although Oliver Stone was gonna make it at one time...
...and others were gonna make it, and it never happened.
I wonder, though, if, given the current climate...
...whether doing a film on the military, with a heroic view of the military...
...of the cavalry again, would be possible now.
I think it would be. I think you'd have to deal...
You might not have Indians as villains.
You might actually show cavalry or the military playing that difficult role...
...trying to keep the peace between Indians...
...and, at the same time, a settler culture...
...that often created more trouble for them...
...than, you know, the local Indians might.
But being asked to put down Indians, regardless of what Indians have done.
Frankly, that's exactly the plotline in Fort Apache...
...the best Custer film ever made...
...which is the Indians are very heroic, and they are...
The cavalry still has to fight them.
And the cavalry is still incredibly heroic.
And so you can have it both ways because that's the way it was.
What happened to the Western in the '60s and '70s...
...is that they had to make the cavalry into these demonic villains...
...and that didn't work for people.
We were talking about How the West Was Won.
Here we go. It's the cattle stampede.
This is straight out of that.
Absolutely. That's gotta hurt!
And again, animals.
We're back to our thematic construct of animals in the Western.
It is exactly right out of How the West Was Won.
Here they come, yes.
Although those are not very authentic cattle for the period.
I wonder where they got that huge herd. Look at that.
He's up there with that gun again.
Yeah, that's a shot right out of How the West Was Won.
Knocking down the fences.
That's a tough place to put the camera.
Well, Frank knows that. He knows how that movie magic takes place.
I know, but I'm not saying.
And again, we're back out at that ranch set...
...that is a little distance from the actual set of the town.
Should've watched closer.
I wonder if the guy who killed the little piggy got trampled by the cows.
- That would have been... - That would have been very poignant.
- Better still if he'd been fed to the pigs. - Yeah.
Let them get their revenge.
The cows and the pigs have communicated...
...and it's kind of like Animal Farm, I guess.
By the way, wasn't he just flat on his back...
...with 14 broken ribs and a major skull fracture? I mean...
He took off the bandage off his head and he's fine.
I sense that our one-eyed friend is not gonna make it through this scene.
Surely, you're mistaken.
I'm not mistaken, and please don't call me Shirley.
But he's got the kid as a hostage so...
I had dinner with David Zucker last night, so I just cribbed his line.
- I understand. - Yeah.
Which reminds me, by the way, folks who want to...
...listen to DVD commentary...
...can catch me playing the doctor delivering O.J. Simpson's baby...
...in the final reel of Naked Gun 33 1/3.
And in the DVD commentary...
...David Zucker says to his producer, "Oh, look, it's Hutton."
And the producer goes:
"Oh, yeah, he was writing that book on Davy Crockett.
Did he ever get that book done?"
Zucker goes, "No, and he's never gonna get that book done."
That's great, isn't that great? Your friends looking out for you.
And now that news is on two different DVD titles.
I see. That probably wasn't smart.
They rescued the kid.
- Yeah, didn't see that coming. - Yeah, and it's just...
And the kid's crying.
And the shootout in the barn with the horses rearing.
Animals are an intrinsic part of this movie. I hadn't noticed that before.
I wonder what the body count actually is in this movie.
I mean, probably more people than were killed in all of New Mexico in...
It's certainly in the dozens.
But people die well...
...in the sense that they don't die pain... They die quickly. There's not...
There's neither, in sort of those '60s Westerns...
...where blood's spurting all over the place.
- We don't get any of that here. - It's clean.
Well, I mean, this movie is not attempting any realism here.
I mean, we are really engaging in fantasy, and so, yeah, why do that?
I mean that would just be gratuitous, to have lots of blood and gore.
So you do see a little red spot and that's enough.
Establishes your point.
He's doing a lot of this, he's doing all this...
Look at that. I mean, he's doing all this Robin Hood kind of stuff.
Of course, then he's gonna play Robin Hood.
This means that Kasdan really did feel bad about Big Chill...
...and cutting him out of Big Chill...
...and really was giving him a star turn here.
And he's making every bit that he can out of it.
That pinto pony helps a lot too. That's a good-looking horse.
Oh, he's going to ride bareback. Jeez. That's too much.
The pearl-handled pistols are a nice touch.
This guy's going to die hard.
He just said, "Let's get out of here."
I've read that that is the line that appears in more movies...
...than any other single line in the history of the cinema.
Don't know if it's true...
Did you read that in one of your own books?
I read that in one of my own books. I never lie and I'm always right.
And the footnote is...?
What about, "They went thataway." Is that...?
I don't think you can find more than two movies that actually say that.
There he goes.
Danny Glover got him. He goes over the wall.
It's very nice.
- That is very difficult to ride bareback. - And shoot.
That really is Kevin Costner riding bareback and shooting...
...and riding up on the porch and riding off the porch.
That is very nice.
"Hi, guys."
And the fringe is there. The fringe is a nice touch too.
Yeah, no, he's really giving him the star treatment here.
What's Costner's next film after this? Because he goes on to be a superstar.
His next one was No Way Out, with Gene Hackman and Sean Young.
It was a remake of a John Farrow film...
...starring Ray Milland and Charles Laughton...
...called The Big Clock.
The Big Clock and No Way Out are movies about a man...
...who is forced to investigate a murder that he has been accused of.
And no one knows that he is allegedly the one who did it...
...and he's got to investigate it before anybody finds out.
See, now, what guy puts out his good crystal out on the street?
Especially... He must know that trouble's a-brewing.
Trouble's... Yeah, there we go.
And this is very reminiscent, look at the scene...
...of the film Kevin Costner just did.
The guys gathering for the big gunfight.
With the church steeple in the background, though...
...that sets it up very nicely...
...in terms of the signature of civilisation's rise...
...versus the open plain on the other side.
On one side, wilderness, on the other, the church.
Yeah, this is a very schematic set.
The church steeple is so reminiscent of High Noon too...
...which kind of dominates that Western town as well.
That's why the set works so well, by the way...
...just in a filmmaking point of view.
A lot of nice hills around that kind of guard you...
...from the highway that's just right over that ridge line.
Right, and a vista that is completely unobstructed by power lines.
I haven't even seen a vapour trail yet.
Considering there is a major airport just 50 miles away...
...they're doing a good job here.
Tough to find.
And you see how this they use this town in Wyatt Earp as well.
This is very reminiscent of Wyatt Earp.
The guy's climbing up there...
...because you know he's gonna be shot off there.
He's gonna to take a major fall.
No sense in actually walking up the steps and going out the window...
...when you can climb up the pole.
That would be absolutely correct.
Wouldn't be the cowboy way. Or the bad cowboy way.
This is the first time we actually had people on the streets in number.
That opening scene with the stagecoach coming in and everything...
...used some extras.
Because, again, I'm very concerned about the extras.
- This is right out of... - Cemetery scenes here...
It's right out of Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.
I'm about to break into Frankie Laine singing "Boot Hill"...
...as they cross the graveyard heading for the gunfight. Get it?
That would be...
And there is Silverado sitting right up there on top of that hill.
You know, that Copland-esque music there.
Very nice. You know, you're absolutely right.
The soundtrack to this is very, very nice...
...and I had not paid that much attention to it.
I listen to soundtracks when I write, and so I need to get this.
- I wonder if it's available on CD. - Yeah, it really is terrific.
And he also did the soundtrack to Black Robe...
...which is a soundtrack I do listen to a lot and love. I just think it's great.
And the Western, of course, really gives you an opportunity...
...to do some wonderful music...
...and really opens up musical possibilities.
Is he still bareback?
"Let's get them!" Is that another line that's often used in the Western?
I'll bet it is.
Well, "Let's get out of here" is not confined to the Western.
It actually shows up in virtually every movie ever made.
I see, "Let's get out of here."
Except, possibly The Passion of the Christ.
Which I still haven't seen.
But it would have been a good line in that movie. "Let's get out of here."
I don't know how you say it in Aramaic.
- Oh, she's alive! - She survived!
She's alive. I thought she took it right in the chest.
Yeah, all the good people survive.
You know, the brother...
...who is shot before the kid is killed, he's fine. You know, they're all fine.
- Danny Glover's dad didn't live. - That's true.
Not only was he shot, they drowned him.
- I mean, for heaven's sake, you know... - Then I'm sure he was bad at heart.
No, I don't...
- He was just old. - Yes, just his time to go.
His time to go, yeah.
In that sense, it's very much like a Gene Autry film...
...in that no one's dying.
Everyone's getting wounded:
"That hurts. Right in the shoulder."
They've been restoring a lot of those Gene Autry films.
That was nice.
They've been restoring a lot of those Gene Autry films...
...and showing them on the Western Channel.
Are you guys financing that?
No, but the Autry Foundation... I mean, they do it.
- Well, isn't that you? - We're related, but we're independent.
Trying to distance yourself, I can see.
But those are nice, those are nice.
There is actually one, Frank, one of those Autry films...
...that does the Texas World's Fair.
- The Big Show. - Yeah, The Big Show.
And they have a little bit of Alamo in there.
So I bought that film just for that.
Frank and I are, of course, total and complete Alamo loons.
Yeah, clearly.
Agree on almost everything, except the recent film that was made.
- You mean the great one? - The great one, yeah, the great one.
Of course, I'm in the great one.
- You are in it? - I have a close-up.
He has a close-up, but he doesn't have a line.
I have six lines in Naked Gun 33 1/3. Six. Six lines.
And I'm in, you know, the final movie with O.J. Simpson.
With a mask on your face.
It's safe to say that you are in O.J. Simpson's final movie.
Yes, I think that probably is true.
I do have a mask on my face.
People have often said, "Who is that masked man?"
- I don't think anybody's ever said that. - Who are you in The Alamo, Frank?
- Just some guy. - He's in the...
Is that how you're described in the credits, "Some Guy"?
He is in the endless Texas Declaration of Independence scenes...
...where they're all thinking about what they should be doing...
...while the boys in the Alamo are fighting for freedom.
I'm the emotional centre of that scene.
I don't know what he was doing with John Lee Hancock...
...but he's got three really good close-ups, so I think he...
- It's just star power. - Yeah, I guess so, I guess.
And in one of them, he emotes.
It's only a pity that on this DVD we're exclusively in audio.
Yes, someday we should do another one of these tracks picture-in-picture.
- Yeah. - I think the audience would thank us.
There are some good-looking guys in this room, believe me.
Yeah, but they're all out there at the sound booth.
John Lee Hancock, by the way, I think is indeed...
Let me correct myself and make it clear...
...that he is a great and wonderful guy and a superb writer.
- And made a great film. - Did make... Did try at a difficult film.
- Here is a great one. - We're watching.
We're gonna try and pay attention.
We're not supposed to be watching. We're supposed to talk.
But this is a scene that should be...
This is classic Western gunfighter stuff.
I see that.
There you go. I mean, that's, come on...
- Correct in every detail. - Yeah.
Just like it happened in the Old Wild West everywhere.
It's only interesting from a Western movie point of view...
...that that bad guy gets such a buildup...
And then dies like that.
And then just dies quickly without much fanfare.
Because they keep going to him. "This is gonna be fun," you know.
And that's a problem in Open Range. It just stunned me in Open Range...
...where they have this buildup, and against a British guy...
...a British killer who obviously had murdered Kevin Costner's friend...
...and then he's killed, but they cut out all the buildup.
You can tell he's supposed to be bad or we're really supposed to care...
...and he has a great death, but there is no villainous buildup.
In other words, you've gotta shoot a pig or something...
...or you've gotta kick the dog, or you've gotta do something...
You know, the derringer, the hideaway gun...
...was really prevalent in the gambler class.
So it's cute that Goldblum has it.
They were quite common in the West, and they had a wide variety.
In the early West, the riverboat time that you and I write about, Steve...
...they would have little knives on them as well, as an all-purpose...
Because you only get one shot...
...and then you stab the guy, just in case you missed...
...which people usually did in the West, especially with a small hideaway gun.
And they had whole contraptions that were rigged...
...so it would pop out in your hand.
And those of us who are climbing into middle-age now...
...remember the great character that Jock Mahoney played...
...Yancy Derringer, back in the '50s. Absolutely.
But Scott Glenn really has recuperated remarkably well.
He's showing no signs of the distress.
You know, revenge is the great cure-all.
Of being stampeded.
The next time you're down with a cold or something...
...just decide to get even with somebody...
...and you'll be right back on your feet again.
Now his gun is gonna jam.
And he missed on the crucial shot.
But he missed. He finally missed. Yes, that's incredible.
Is that an outhouse back there, by the way?
I think we should talk about plumbing in the Old West.
It's our job to be discussing history.
This is back to my Smell-o-vision version of Western movies.
This is the guy who had trampled him earlier...
...so he gets his poetic comeuppance here.
I see what's going to happen. Yes. Right.
The milk cans are nice. Did you see the milk cans there?
That was very nice.
By the way, these trees... This is very high plain.
These trees are all planted, you see. The set dresser has brought them in.
There's no trees out there, as you can see if you look at the vista.
It's not natural to the place.
I hope he doesn't get knocked in a pigpen and then eaten by the pigs.
That would be indeed very poignant.
And it would be prescient, as well, for things to come.
- Where do you learn words like that? - I studied with you.
Steve has got a Ph.D., and he doesn't know words like that.
- I've learned not to used them. - I spend a lot of time alone.
Just studying the thesaurus.
- Where did you go to graduate school? - Berkeley.
So you're just a California boy. Now you're back here at UCLA.
That's got to kind of cause you conflict...
...to have graduated from Berkeley and be at UCLA.
That has gotta be painful for you.
That would be like if I went to Purdue or something.
I mean, oh, my God. The pain of that.
Oh, another wound.
And now without a weapon.
Yes, he's got to find another way.
What is the matter with this guy that he...?
Yeah, rather than shooting from his horse being at a standstill...
...he, of course, gallops his horse.
But here comes...
- There you go. - I see. Very, very nice. Very nice.
There was a lot of that in the Old West.
A lot of the diving your horse out of a second-story building.
That's something Champion could've done.
- Yes, and did it very well. - Yeah.
The various Champions.
This would be an opportunity to talk about great horses in the movies.
- Tarzan? - Tom Mix's horse, right?
And what was William S. Hart's horse's name?
- That's a tough one. - Oh, I do know that.
Well, we're waiting for you to tell us.
It'll come to me when I'm not thinking about it.
Tony? Is it Tony?
- William S. Hart? No? - Maybe.
Topper, of course, is Hopalong Cassidy's horse.
And most recently, Seabiscuit...
...in a slightly different version of the Western.
Well, yes.
Now here we are, down to the final two people upright, apparently.
Evidently. By the way, Buttermilk was Dale Evans' horse name.
- Trigger for Roy Rogers. - Trigger's easy.
Let's not forget Silver.
Silver? What about Scout? "Get him up, Scout," remember?
Now that's the clichéd shot, though. On the one end...
When we discuss Mr. Kasdan's films, we should not use the word "cliché."
We should talk about framing, we should talk about brilliance.
- We should talk about use of light. - Homage.
It's a brilliant shot.
Did you see the tumbleweed? Look, they've got the fans going.
They're blowing that dust.
As if you have to get fans going in New Mexico.
Unfortunately, we do have lots of dust all the time whipping through.
And again, this is a classic scene.
It's certainly the classic scene in Western movies...
...is that final gunfight.
I think, as I said earlier, many Western historians have suggested...
...that the prevalence of such scenes are greatly exaggerated...
...in Western movies.
That... As an event in Western towns, it was a rarity.
To get that kind of gunfighter, formal duel.
That's not to say there's not a long duelling tradition in American history...
...especially coming out of the old South...
...where honour culture and notions of duelling and protection of honour...
...have a sort of long-standing...
Especially, continuing into the early republic.
But in the Old West, I think that sort of gunfighter duel, the formal duel...
...is relatively less common.
I can only think of two of them that actually ever occurred.
One is a very famous gunfight between Wild Bill Hickok and Dave Tutt...
...in the town square of St. Joe.
They really did call each other out. They really met in the middle of town.
And Hickok absolutely drilled him...
...then turned and covered the other guys that were coming to help Dave.
And then, of course, the gunfight at the O.K. Corral...
...the classic walk down the street to the confrontation with your enemies.
Actually, at the O.K. Corral, it would be the vacant lot behind the O.K Corral...
...where the gunfight took place. Doesn't sound quite as good.
I think if you were raised on Western movies...
...you would think this was an almost daily event.
You would think, indeed.
More common would be the gunfight Wild Bill had...
...with Phil Coe, the gambler...
...which takes place in the doorway of the Alamo saloon.
Coe had shot a dog and is just raising hell...
...and Hickok comes running up, and they have gunfight right there.
He kills Phil Coe, and then hears someone coming up behind him.
Turns, swirls and fires, and shoots his own deputy dead.
That gunfight in Abilene is about as famous and more typical...
...of the kind of gunfights that really occurred...
- ...which is chaotic action. - Right.
And usually just occurring in a second, without that long walk.
That's why the Hickok duel with Dave Tutt is so famous.
The gunfights in movies are always staged this way...
...I think simply as a way to build up tension...
...as a way to have the main protagonist and the main antagonist...
...face each other down.
They usually get to say a few words to each other...
...sum up things in a way that we would often like to do in life.
So I think dramatically it makes a great deal of sense. This is simply tension.
Yeah, and very stylised. And this gunfight is too.
I mean, it plays off the convention of the Western itself.
It's almost like a ballet, it's almost a little dance that they do.
And they come together for the climactic moment of the film...
...and you know the hero's gonna win, the villain's gonna die...
...and it's very dramatic.
What's amazing is that it can still have such power.
You've got to have the big gunfight. It's a Western.
Especially if you're playing off the conventions of the Western.
Like I said earlier, there's that one character who's built up so much...
...and then is sort of killed offhandedly.
That's probably the way it could happen in real life...
...but dramatically, you really want to build up to the face-off...
...and to have people go out in a memorable way.
It's just the way we like our drama.
But here is the great reveal.
- Here we go. - Yep.
And back to those Copland-esque French horns...
...to let us know we're...
We've been classic all the way, and we're classic at the end.
Well, it moves very well.
It works as exactly what it's supposed to be.
It's movie magic, it's great characters, it's larger than life.
A lot of action.
I've got no complaints with this movie. I like it a lot.
And It's not a pretentious film at all.
- I mean, it's exactly what it is. - Listen.
"We'll be back!"
There is the sequel, set up. And it never comes.
And look at that New Mexico landscape.
Well, boys, this has just been great fun.
It's been great to see this film again...
...which I actually hadn't seen since it came out.
I saw it when it came out.
And it was such a touchstone to an effort on Kasdan's part...
...to re-create the Western.
It didn't quite work, I think, the way he had hoped it would...
...in bringing back a lot of Westerns, but it holds up well today.
It's been great for me, Paul Hutton...
...to be here with you, Frank, and you, Steve, and see this.
It has been a pleasure. I look forward, Paul and Frank...
...to joining you for Silverado 2 at some point.
This is Steve Aron.
I'm Frank Thompson and I've broken one of my cardinal rules in life...
...by talking all the way through a movie.
You'll never catch me doing this again, but I had a great time.
Well, let's do it again, Frank.
My connection, slight as it is, with the film industry...
...leads me to sit through all credits and watch them very carefully.
Especially to see where my little minor one is.
You get a deeper appreciation for credits.
In The Alamo, I had to tell all my family:
"For once you're gonna have to sit through the credits...
...because my name comes at the very last..."
That's how you know when you're seeing a movie in Los Angeles...
- ...because people do. - They do.
In Los Angeles, people sit and watch...
And applaud.
Three people will applaud when the property master's credit comes up.
"What's that?"
If, after you're finished watching the final scene of Naked Gun 33 1/3--
- Which we're all gonna go rent. - I hope you will.
As well as the New Mexico tourist brochure.
But you need to watch the credits all the way through...
...because, toward the end of the credits...
Because the Zucker brothers always do these funny credits...
...and toward the very end of the film, it says:
"For further reading, we suggest Phil Sheridan and His Army...
...by Paul Andrew Hutton."
- So there we go. - There's a plug.
Available from the University of Oklahoma Press, now New Press.
Which is also, by the way, bringing out my The Custer Reader...
...which is just coming out in another month.
You can pick up your copy, Steve.
As I know you'll want to get the new edition...
...of Worlds Together, Worlds Apart from W.W. Norton.
A History of the Modern World From the Mongol Empire to the Present.
- You wrote this? - I cowrote it.
You cowrote it. You couldn't do the whole world by yourself?
As well as, forthcoming from Indiana University Press...
...American Confluence:
The Missouri Frontier From Borderland to Border State.
My goodness, that sounds very good.
Oh, very good.
And still How the West Was Lost:
The Transformation of Kentucky from Daniel Boone to Henry Clay.
- Which is a wonderful book. - As are yours.
I don't want to butt in on this.
That was some really shameless plugging.
I have had four books come out since November, but...
What would those be, Frank? I can't keep track of them all.
Simply Google me and you'll find out.
Google you.
I'm not gonna Google you, Frank. I refuse to.
And I wish you wouldn't talk that way.
Then that's one more dream that will never come true.